Talk:Beatdown hardcore

Major concerns I have

Hi Statik N, I appreciate your work here and I tend to agree that many of the bands mentioned indeed share a definable sound distinct from standard hardcore with its own historical evolution. However, note several slippery slopes in adding this "genre" across related articles. First of all, the phrase "heavy hardcore" itself has seen very very little usage and I doubt most bands, fans and critics interested in hardcore would understand what it refers to upon hearing it. The majority of sources here speak of "tough guy hardcore" or less frequently "beatdown hardcore" and there no evidence here that these are synonymous with "heavy hardcore" or even with each other. Of the sources you use for your definition/characteristics that are available online (all but 1), NONE EVEN MENTION "heavy hardcore" and this is a huge problem. In line with these sources, I would suggest moving the article to "tough guy hardcore" and treating this as default, and removing all sources that refer to other terms UNLESS we find a source that actually defines them as synonyms (or at least show that both terms are being used to refer to the same set of bands).

Even then however, I guarantee that for the vast majority of concerned bands there will be 9 published references simply calling them "hardcore" to every 1 calling them "tough guy/beatdown/heavy/brutal/whatever hardcore". Please consider this when replacing "hardcore punk" with "heavy hardcore" in other articles; everything you incude should be based on the general tendency in available sources, which are hugely in favour of the former. Additionally, most of those bands will also be considered EITHER crossover thrash OR metalcore/metallic hardcore (you could think of this "first wave/1980s" and "second wave/1990s" tough guy hardcore). This leaves the question whether there is any space for tough guy hardcore between these genres. As I have set out with, I would say yes: I think we actually need such a term to describe hardcore bands who are sort of in a dead zone between punk and metal and don't really fit either of these categories in sound and values. However, I am convinced that there should be mutli-user consensus on this before you start making changes across Wikipedia, let alone replacing the much-better-recognised "hardcore punk". So please, let's open a discussion, and be patient about making changes beyond this article.--MASHAUNIX 23:13, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I think changing the name of the article to tough guy hardcore is a pretty good idea. I will admit that I refused to use it as the name of the article because the name "tough guy hardcore" sounds a little silly/informal even though that's actually what the genre is usually called. I decided to use the term "heavy hardcore" because of a book that I cited in the article. I want to keep this article because nobody can say that bands like Terror or Bulldoze sound anything like bands like Bad Brains or Black Flag. I was very surprised this article wasn't on Wikipedia so I created it myself. I did find some websites that did define tough guy hardcore when I looked up the genre. Sadly, some websites weren't reliable. I could try to find multiple sources that describe a certain band as tough guy hardcore/beatdown/brutal hardcore/etc. though. I think since tough guy hardcore is the term used for this genre the most, I agree that we can change the article to tough guy hardcore. The name "tough guy hardcore" may sound silly/informal, but it is the name for the genre that is used the most. Statik N (talk) 00:20, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, either that or "beatdown hardcore"; try to do thorough research and find which term is best established in published sources. I think it also won't be difficult to find a source which will define them as synonyms. Another problem with the term "heavy hardcore" I think is that the majority of hardcore since the later 80s is heavy (employs the heavily distorted guitar sound pioneered by Black Sabbath) even when it's not "tough" or particularly metal-influenced in other ways. You note that there is a chasm between Terror and Black Flag/Bad Brains, and this is true. However, the difference IMO is not one of "heaviness" or even the amount of metal influence; Black Flag were famously one of the first bands to combine hardcore and metal (and My War is probably some of the "heaviest" hardcore ever put to tape) and Bad Brains ventured into metal starting with I Against I (1986). The difference is that unlike those two bands and the majority of hardcore bands even today, Terror can hardly be considered punk. I get the feeling that many people today see "hardcore" and "hardcore punk" as two different things (which I personally think is nonsense), and I think this is where the "beatdown/tough guy" descriptor may come in handy. "Tough guy hardcore" does sound stupid but it really hits the nail when it comes to the absence of punk values among those sort of bands. However, before you envision hardcore as thus divided between two major strains, considered that the term is now used as an umbrella for a huge number of different styles, from crust punk to screamo to grindcore. Converge are considered hardcore, and they actually emerged from the if-you-will 90s tough guy hardcore scene, but they sound nothing like those bands, or in fact any other band. Contemporary hardcore is an array of different sounds, most of them "heavy", most of them decidedly punk, many of them with a tendency for "beating down", many of them on the border of metal or other genres. So stick to the range of available sources and don't get ahead of yourself as to the significance of the sound that this article focuses on.--MASHAUNIX 10:39, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I made a section called "vagueness of the term". I thought you would like it. I'm still trying to do research on terms like "heavy hardcore", "tough guy hardcore", "beatdown hardcore", etc. Do you want to work with me on doing research? It can help make finding sources easier. Statik N (talk) 00:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that section is great! I'm sorry but I barely have time for my own Wikipedia projects... I just wanted to leave you a bit of feedback and I can continue to do that as well as cosmetic edits like I usually do.--MASHAUNIX 10:21, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree that this article is fantastic, but I really can't get behind the term "heavy hardcore". I've never heard anyone use that term before reading this article. "Beatdown Hardcore" has always been the most common usage from what I can tell. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.137.211.76 (talk) 13:50, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Beatdown would probably be the best name for the page but there's probably a lot more sources referring to heavy hardcore because of the vagueness. Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:33, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Fusion genres

Should this page really have all of metalcore's fusion genres down in the fusion genres section? There's no sources to relate deathcore, electronicore or such as being related to heavy hardcore, just that they are related to metalcore and heavy hardcore is related to metalcore. Pages such as the one for hardcore punk don't include styles such as screamo because it's a fusion genres of a fusion genre. Issan Sumisu (talk) 13:15, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Good article

I'm relieved to find an article on the genre hardcore! It definitely needed to have its own article separate from that of hardcore punk, as they sound like totally different monsters. — Tha†emoover†here (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Downtempo

Is heavy hardcore/beatdown the same thing as downtempo? Whenever I hear the term "downtempo", I often hear the terms "beatdown" and "hardcore" pop up too. But I have always associated the term "downtempo" as just being a slower version of deathcore, so I don't know what's what... can anyone clarify this for me? — Tha†emoover†here (talk) 21:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I've searched and found no reliable sources referring to downtempo, meaning that everything I'm going to say is 100% original research, but from what I understand: there are two (maybe more) "downtempo" styles, downtempo deathcore and downtempo hardcore. Downtempo hardcore is just beatdown, with Last FM citing Brutality Will Prevail, San Diego's Colassal and Middlesbrough's Wraiths, while downtempo deathcore is just slow deathcore, Black Tounge were the first band I heard described as this despite referring to themselves as "doomcore". Issan Sumisu (talk) 05:26, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Sfetcu, Nicolae (2014). The Music Sound

I removed all references to this "book" — it's a collection of Wikipedia articles sold as an ebook (which is legal). See WP:CIRCULAR and do not re-add these references. RoseCherry64 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:30, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

WTF is this genre?

This genre never existed. Please remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.96.221.219 (talk) 14:34, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Please nominate this article for speedy deletion - this is a joke. 2600:1700:93B0:6B50:68A4:E5EB:5E5C:8E44 (talk) 10:06, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I would actually support that. There's too much problems with it. WP:TNT should be considered --FMSky (talk) 23:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Notability

Is there even a single journalistic article discussing this as being a valid genre term? And I don't mean as a synonym for "tough guy hardcore" (although I think you might struggle with that as well). Note as always that bands discussing things in interviews cannot be used as sources per WP:RS, not can any webzine not independently published in print format by a third party source. I think this is WP:AFD fodder. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

There's definitely quite a few sources [1][2][3][4] "Heavy hardcore" might not be the best name for the page though, the WP:COMMONNAME might be tough guy or beatdown. Issan Sumisu (talk) 18:32, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

The thing about those sources however is that they are all dated after the creation of this page. I've never heard heavy hardcore used as a genre or style name prior to finding this wiki article and it seems to me that this page is responsible for creating the term in the first place rather than this page describing something that was already in use. RatMusic (talk) 21:16, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

The only sources I've personally seen from prior the page creation are the two for alternate names listed in the lead. I agree, I'd never heard the term prior to this page, but I had definitely heard "beatdown", "toughguy" and "moshcore", they're very common phrases. A discussion can always been started on whether to move it to one of the alternate names, as I mentioned above. I know the page's creator, Statik N, has been pushing for it to get moved to just "hardcore", but that seems like it would hugely conflict with hardcore punk, and probably others genres like hardcore rap or hardcore (electronic dance music genre). Issan Sumisu (talk) 06:17, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I created this page didn't I? I created it because bands like Hatebreed, Terror, Madball, Strife, etc. keep getting called hardcore bands yet they sound NOTHING like Black Flag, Minor Threat, the Circle Jerks, etc. These bands instead are just metal-oriented bands and they sound way more metal than punk. But while hardcore is short for hardcore punk, bands like madball and terror are labeled often as simply hardcore and are never labeled hardcore punk. That's why I thought a more mainstream word for their style is simply hardcore. I guess we could change this page name to "Hardcore (heavy metal subgenre)". Statik N (talk) 22:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Finding a reference to call it a metal genre would probably be very hard. As far as I know, most sources are using "hardcore" as an umbrella term, when referencing those bands as the style comes directly from hardcore punk."Beatdown hardcore" turns up 89,300 results on Google, "tough guy hardcore" turns up 73,600 and "moshcore" turns ups 73,200. So beatdown would probably be the commonname, especially since pages like Code Orange (band), Malevolence (band) and World of Pain (band) already link to the beatdown redirect. Issan Sumisu (talk) 06:20, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I see the page has now settled in at Beatdown Hardcore, which is certainly better than the made up "heavy hardcore," though I would have opted for "metallic hardcore" myself (which yields 184,000 google results). The problem there is that the metalcore page already has that as a synonym even though it really shouldn't, but I guess people started talking about Metalcore that way. Oh well. It seems getting all the hardcore stuff in order would take revising many different pages and it gets to be too much. Anyway, I think an issue with a lot of this is a fundamental difference of opinion as to what this page is actually describing. I'm seeing a lot on this talk page that I disagree strongly with. "Clearly bands like Hatebreed aren't hardcore punk at all," and "bands like Hatebreed, Terror, Madball, Strife, etc. keep getting called hardcore bands yet they sound NOTHING like Black Flag, Minor Threat, the Circle Jerks, etc. These bands instead are just metal-oriented bands and they sound way more metal than punk." Hatebreed, Terror, Madball, & Strife are hardcore punk bands. Maybe Hatebreed less-so after Satisfaction, but all of these bands evolved out of the hardcore punk tradition. You had hardcore punk like the Dead Kennedys which quickly gave rise to oldschool hardcore (or what people think of as straight up hardcore), which leads to crossover thrash, which then leads directly into the New York Hardcore style / Toughguy / Metallic Hardcore / Beatdown sounds. Hearing Madball, Terror, or Strife the immediate reaction is that they sound as if they evolved out of oldschool hardcore, not metal. Yes they are harder than the original bands, but the similarities to certain types of metal are due to convergent evolution. A dolphin superficially looks like a fish but it is still a mammal. RatMusic (talk) 06:35, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Hardcore (punk rock and heavy metal subgenre) → Beatdown hardcore – The move to Hardcore (punk rock and heavy metal subgenre) was entirely discussed, and this current name makes very little sense: 1. "Hardcore" is well established as an umbrella term to encompass hardcore punk and it's subgenres. 2. "Hardcore" is more commonly used to refer to hardcore punk than it is a "punk rock and heavy metal subgenre". This name seems like a massive conflation sources using ambiguous language when there is legitimate sources discussing the genre, just doing so under the sourced alternate names. I believe of the sourced names for this "Beatdown hardcore" is the WP:COMMON as it turns up 89,300 results on Google, compared to "tough guy hardcore" with 66,600 and "moshcore" with 80,100. Issan Sumisu (talk) 06:11, 8 June 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Support per nom. The main thing like you said is that "hardcore" alone almost always refers to hardcore punk instead of beatdown, toughguy, etc--FMSky (talk) 06:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Oppose. 90% of the time when i hear people say "hardcore" they refer to bands like Hatebreed or Madball rather than Bad Brains or Minor Threat. That stuff is just called hardcore punk. A lot of beatdown hardcore bands just are simply labeled hardcore by sources instead of hardcore punk, but those sources are doubtfully putting them in the same category as bands like the Dead Kennedys or the Circle Jerks. As a result, we can't label these bands under the right genre on Wikipedia. Clearly bands like Hatebreed aren't hardcore punk at all. Also, the word hardcore is used to describe more than one genre, that's true, but that doesn't stop the fact that hardcore is the name for a techno offshoot. This article helps clarify the difference between hardcore and hardcore punk. Although hardcore is short for hardcore punk, the beatdown genre is just labeled as hardcore and thus removes the punk from hardcore punk, especially with its bands often being more metal than punk. Statik N (talk) 10:07, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

In reference to how "those sources are doubtfully putting them in the same category as bands like the Dead Kennedys or the Circle Jerks", here are some articles citing those bands within the same breath all as simply "hardcore": [5] [6] [7] [8] Issan Sumisu (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

A lot of those sources are using the word hardcore broadly to describe both styles (the punk style and the metal style). A lot of those sources are probably unaware or not mentioning how the genre changed into a more metal-oriented offshoot. Many sources simply label bands like black flag or bad brains as simply "hardcore punk" yet these same publishers will say "hardcore" to describe bands like madball or hatebreed. Statik N (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

What you said just proves the first point I made in the original move request, that "hardcore" is used as an umbrella term to encompass all of hardcore punk's subgenres and so can't be accredited to one single subgenre because everything becomes messy as to what sources refer to what. Obviously beatdown has its origins in hardcore, but so does thrashcore, D-beat, grindcore, etc. and those are also slapped with the "hardcore" label because of it. Issan Sumisu (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

But hardcore is also a word for hardcore techno, too. It's still the general name of beatdown hardcore. Most beatdown hardcore bands are just labeled as simply hardcore, so when critics refer to Terror as a hardcore band they probably don't mean hardcore punk, so if we changed it to beatdown hardcore, on Terror's page we'd have to refer to them as hardcore punk even though I doubt that's what the source meant. Hardcore punk bands on Wikipedia are just labeled as hardcore punk, which could prevent confusion. Statik N (talk) 02:10, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

The source on Terror's page for their genre is Best Beatdown Hardcore Bands. I don't think you understand that differentiating between the two creates more confusion. Beatdown is pretty much exclusively cited as subgenre of hardcore punk, so if a band is being called "hardcore" even if they are referring to beatdown, that band is still a hardcore punk band, because it's a subgenre. It means that the editors get to decide which style the source is referring to, plainly evident in the current version of Throwdown (band). The article cited just calls them a "hardcore outfit" the same way any of the articles I linked earlier refer to the Bad Brains as a hardcore band. Can you provide a source which says that "hardcore" refers to its own genre and not hardcore punk, otherwise it's WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Of the ones cited in the article: in [9] it is stated by a member of Crime in Stereo, not the author, so isn't reliable, but he even still differentiates them using "tough-guy"; [10] refers to the genre as "tough-guy", not simply hardcore. There's no proof in the article that "hardcore" is even the name of this genre, it's not even a sourced synonym like tough-guy, beatdown or heavy hardcore are. Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:05, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Many of these bands just simply get labeled hardcore yet have 0 sources saying hardcore punk. whereas bands like bad brains have numerous sources that might label them hardcore punk or hardcore. Sometimes it's obvious what they mean by hardcore. If a hardcore techno group gets labeled hardcore, it'll be obvious what they mean. That's why we can still link the word hardcore to the appropriate page. Also, sources say that beatdown is a subgenre of both metal and punk. Nobody would seriously think of Terror or Hatebreed as hardcore punk, let alone punk rock. Statik N (talk) 16:08, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

This is completely ridiculous, the whole article just feels like original research. Everyone who says hardcore means hardcore punk. This article should be moved or deleted. FMSky (talk) 07:12, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Just a quick note that every other wiki language other than the finnish one also calls it "beatdown hardcore": https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5724040#sitelinks-wikipedia, this definitely seems to be the most common term FMSky (talk) 11:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I really doubt anyone considers Hatebreed a hardcore punk band. Nobody would seriously consider them punk rock instead of metal. Same with Terror, Earth Crisis, Bury Your Dead, etc.

This page was written based around "heavy hardcore" being its name. Unless you can find a source to say that name is synonymous with just "hardcore" then that literally can't be the name of the page. That's just original research. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This Article Is Virtually 100% Ahistorical and Unsupportable

With all the respect I can muster, the original creator of this article seems to have a cursory knowledge of this subject, at best. There are too many erroneous statements present here to address them all individually, but the primary source of nearly everything in this article appears to be nothing more than the author's own mind. For one, there are numerous bands classified as "beatdown" here that I can absolutely assure you have never been referred to as such in any source other than this article. In fact, I believe there is maybe only a single actual beatdown band mentioned in this article. Furthermore, the incredibly colloquial and fluid nature of hardcore micro-genre tags like "beatdown" makes it nearly impossible for this article to exist in a remotely academic capacity. In its current state, it is profoundly misleading and reveals an almost complete lack of comprehension of the subject matter on the author's part. Frankly, this article should be entirely nuked and another, better informed user should make an attempt to tackle it. As it stands, with no hyperbole, nearly nothing in this article is researched, verifiable, or even brushing against the outermost limits of being correct on any conceivable level. 74.39.43.166 (talk) 11:07, 5 November 2022 (UTC)