Talk:Beauty and the Beast (Disney song)

"Info dumps"

@Coin945: As much as I appreciate your eagerness to help me with this article (and many more...), at times your edits, especially your "info dumps" as you call them, can be much more disruptive than helpful, especially since for some reason you refuse to cite them properly. For example, including a link to a YouTube video is not a citation. Using YouTube videos as references should be avoided; look for alternative sources – websites, articles, reviews, anything. Also, it gives me more work to do than I would like when I constantly have to go back and fix your edits by correcting citations (which I've been very patient with) and removing clutter (such as your constant linking to titles and artists to Wikipedia articles that don't exist). If a topic does not have a Wikipedia article and results in a red Wikilink, that is a hint for you to not include it in the article as the topic is probably not notable. For example, the recent plethora of random compilation albums you added to the covers section; not every compilation has to be included in the article. I included the one by Julie Andrews because she's Julie Andrews. Additionally, the list of awards that "Beauty and the Beast" has gotten belongs in the "Awards" section, while the song's inclusion on Dion's greatest hits albums has already been cited in the "Legacy" section, which is probably where the bit about Bryson recording the sequel theme song belongs. With that said, you've also done some good work (I owe the "ballroom" section largely to you) and would like to keep working with you, but please use discretion in your edits.--Changedforbetter (talk) 16:38, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Impressive article

I'm very impressed by this article. Have the authors considered nominating it for Good Article status? Bob talk 22:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

This is ultimately the goal, but in my opinion the article could still benefit from a few more tweaks here and there, to which I am attending slowly. @Bob Castle: Thanks for your compliments and encouragement though!--Changedforbetter (talk) 05:52, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Quick question

As I'm sure you're aware, though I always aim to improve articles and am a completionist in nature, I do not know all the answers and where to draw the line between context-adding facts and trivia. I was just wondering what your rationale was for removing that bit about Paige O'Hara. I 100% trust your decision. That's why I wanted to get your opinion, because I think it will really help me when I am judging future content for possible inclusion.--Coin945 (talk) 12:06, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

It is a good fact, but unfortunately the source, a YouTube video, is considered "unreliable", and would likely result in conflict if I am to eventually nominate this article for Good Article status.--Changedforbetter (talk) 17:26, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that YouTube could be accepted if the YouTube channel was the official channel of the company, (rather than a random uploader), which in this case it is: the YouTube channel for Florida Supercon "[also posts] videos from Animate Miami and Magic City Comic Con". If I am mistaken, then because the fact itself is worthy of inclusion could the actual notable event O'Hara spoke at be cited instead (the 2014 Animate Miami)?--Coin945 (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) As one of the judges in the GA Cup and an editor I have admired from afar for a while now, I was wondering if you could lend your expertise to the issue regarding information taken from this video.--Coin945 (talk) 07:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the compliments. I refer you to this policy: WP:YOUTUBE. As it states, decisions need to be made on a case-by-case basis, so I leave the final decision to you regular contributors to this article. However, personally, I think it's allowable, since it's part of an interview at a SuperCon, and I've seen other similar sources used in articles about films and TV shows. BTW, I agree with the above section; this article has great potential, perhaps even as a FA, although it needs a lot work beforehand. You guys should definitely submit it to GAC. After looking at this article more closely, I suggest that you either submit it to WP:PR, or have it reviewed by an editor you trust before GAC. I'd volunteer, but my schedule this summer is making it difficult to take on things like this. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:59, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: What about something like this? Beth Fowler, who originated Mrs Potts (the charater who sings Beauty and the Beast) on the West End, explained some context behind the song during this performance at the SiriusXM's Studios for the radio show Seth Speaks. Though Seth Speaks is probably not notable, does the fact that it is from the horses mouth mean that the info is useable?--Coin945 (talk) 14:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Coin945: If you have an issue with one of my edits, please confront me about it. I removed that particular link/edit simply because it is unnecessary. We don't need a quote from the actress who played Mrs. Potts on Broadway explaining the context of the song for two reasons because a) Fowler is explaining the song's role in the Broadway show, which is slightly different than it is in the film and b) there are already an ample amount of more notable quotes in the article, probably too many, some of which I'm trying to remove. Again, not EVERYTHING needs to be included in the article just because it has something remotely to do with "Beauty and the Beast"; the article is actually becoming a little too long and overwrought with content, some of which is repeating itself.--Changedforbetter (talk) 15:03, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I think there has been a misunderstanding. This question was not related to your edit - I had not even noticed it. It had merely occured to me the day before and wanted to double check in case the info proved worthwhile. As it happens, you deemed it unworthy so my question is moot. FWIW, I think it is a very important statement because it explains the purpose of Mrs Potts and Chip in the background of the scene, and why the lyrics are the way they are - it is a mother's description of love to a naive child. Anyway, I apologise if I caused you any upset; please understand it was not my intention. :)--Coin945 (talk) 19:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

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Academy Awards interviews with cast and crew for 25th anniversary of B&B:

• Interview about Mrs Potts

• Backing was performed by New York Philharmonic.
• Angela sought inspiration for her performance from a cockney person she knew as a child.

References

The edits I hoped to make

Hi @Changedforbetter:

I spent the past hour or so editing the context/ballroom paragraph to make it neat and logical and move all thematically similar passages together into nice, tight sections, based on chronological order of events.--Coin945 (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

But unfortunately the VisualEditor screwed up on me and I lost all of my work.

It's late where I live so I'll just put my proposed changes here. Please feel free to re-create what I propose below because I think it's a massive improvement and breaks up a big section, and visualeditor doesn't seem to fail for you.

I created 5 subsections for the section.

• Context: This only talked about what happens in the scene. Logical flow from after recording. "...the scene that the song takes place in is where Potts sings to belle and beast dancing". purpose is to illustrate the moment they fall in love. etc. I also moved up the  Armen Karaoghlanian paragraph by saying they "describe the context of the scene through the cinematography". I moved the rest to Reception.

• Ballroom design: This is where i included info on how it was decided to create a CGI ballroom sequence to house the above scene. I also arranged the events chronologically, from the first cube to design of ballroom dimensions and mural etc. To belle & beast in stick figures.

• Creation of sequence: This is for info on the two artists who storyboarded the sequence using panning, zooming etc. James Baxter & co. drawing the 2D animation to match. Etc.

• "Release: Reaction to sequence when first released in half-finished form. (pretty much unchanged from what's currently there).

• Reception Long-term reaction to scene - significance of it in history of animation etc. (could be merged with reception or legacy sections as they overlap). Also shoved all sentences about how its the focus, centre, highlight of the film, and how its belle falling in love with beast, blossoming of romance, all that jazz --> into a final paragraph in this section. Hadn't decided quite what to do with it.

This would then move onto the musical and lyrical interpretation because the song was only interpreted once the ballroom sequence was released.

Coin945

@Coin945: Okay, so I think that I've been more than accommodating towards the constant edits that you simply insist on making to almost any Disney-related article that I've attempted to take under my wing over the past year or so, but your recent "reconstruction" I guess of this entire article is where I finally draw the line and voice my true opinion. Now I don't wanna say that you've gone ahead and completely destroyed "Beauty and the Beast" with your recent series of edits – among them rearranging entire paragraphs, inserting a plethora of unnecessary headings and subheadings that simply clutter and make the article difficult to read and something of an eyesore, removing the "music and lyrics" section for whatever unjust reason, insisting on constantly citing links and sources (yes, those including those YouTube videos) improperly - because that might sound a little harsh, but I will say that you've definitely degenerated this article to the point of which it is almost currently in a completely juvenile, unprofessional and un-encyclopedic state; it more-so resembles a fan-made article that one would maybe find on a Wikia, blog or forum.

Take a moment to look at almost any established, well-written song article on Wikipedia, and you'd find that, in its current state, "Beauty and the Beast" doesn't look anything like them in terms of its format, paragraphing, flow or content. I know you really think you aren't doing anything wrong, and from a technical and intent perspective you aren't. But put yourself in my position for a second: imagine if you've spent an entire year basically rebuilding an entire article from the ground up, hours upon hours a day, and then came back to it one day to find that some editor who thinks he knows what's best for it has completely flipped that article on its head in mere minutes.

I began working on this article maybe three or four years ago with the sole intent of ultimately transforming and promoting it to Good Article status. Out of all the articles I've edited, this one has been the most painful because every time I think I'm a little bit closer to finally getting it to Good Article status, you make a few edits that set me back at least a month or so because I'm forced to either find a way to incorporate or simply remove them. I take partial responsibility for this dilemma because, while other Wikipedians have been very forthright in their criticisms of your edits, I have maybe been a little too passive in my approach. But as of today, I hereby withdraw myself completely from making any further contributions to this article.

Congratulations @Coin945:, you're now completely free to do with "Beauty and the Beast" whatever you please, without having to consult or receive any input from me. Basically, I'm just spent, done, finished. This is your article to transform now. But I will say this – good luck getting this sub-par article to GA status without me, because from what you've done the chances of it happening anytime soon are, quite frankly, very, very slim. And, if you ever decide to "contribute" to another article - Disney-related or not - that I attempt to transform, I will simply not be as kind.

All the best, --Changedforbetter (talk) 21:31, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

• Hi Changedforbetter, I humbly apologize if I have offended you. I genuinely thought there were issues with the article structure and came up with a theory to try to fix it - which I posted here. You didn't respond with any objections so I did it. The good news is you can revert all of my edits with the click of a button!! :D Nevertheless, as per your request I will leave this article alone. Thanks for being so accommodating. (No sarcasm).--Coin945 (talk) 23:41, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

New sources

THE BEAUTY AND THE BEAST CAST REFLECT ON WHAT MADE THE REVOLUTIONARY DISNEY FILM SO BITTERSWEET

• "O'Hara's other favorite was the Oscar-winning title song. Originally, "Beauty and the Beast" wasn't a ballad. Menken and Ashman had created something a bit more up-tempo with a pop-rock tinge. However, once Angela Lansbury signed on to the role of Mrs. Potts, she convinced them to rearrange the song into something she felt more comfortable singing.
• "She kept saying to Alan, 'There's so [many lines] in there, and I don't know if I can still do that,' and of course, she comes into the studio that day and sings the song with the orchestra in one take," O'Hara said.
• For O'Hara, the song became bittersweet when she had the opportunity to sing it in Lansbury's absence during the film's promotional tour. At the time, Ashman was in the hospital suffering complications from AIDS, but he never stopped working; he routinely listened in on O'Hara's recording sessions and gave her notes over the phone. One day, Menken decided to call Ashman's hospital room so that he could hear O'Hara's version of the title song.
• "I sang it to him over the phone, and Howard said, 'I love it. I love the way you sound. I love the key,'" she recalled. "And that was ultimately the last time I talked to Howard.""

METAL MICKEY; TYCOON BEHIND DISNEY PRINCESSES REVEALS HARD-ROCKING SECRETS.

• "Breathtaking...sumptuous animation"

TAMING THE BEAST.

• This colour scheme was preserved in stage musical adaptions of B&B: "Take Belle's ballroom dress, for example. Zingo thinks he has some room to deviate from the original in terms of design and pattern, but not in color. ``It has to be yellow or gold, he says. ``Everyone knows that Belle has a gold dress."

Breaking out of their cels: animation in the computer age. " Dan Philips eventually went to Disney as a special-effects consultant, and was instrumental in building the 3-D ballroom sequence in Beauty and the Beast"

VIDEO A TALE AS OLD AS VHS "The stunning ballroom sequence, which was done with computers, proved to be a harbinger of the great things to come in animation over the last decade."

'Beauty and the Beast' as Old as Time, with Surprises "Anyone who has seen the animated film is sure to be struck by some familiar imagery in the trailer, recreated and made real in magnificent detail - like the grand ballroom and Belle's yellow gown."

Beauty and the Beast "Many animated films following its release have been influenced by its blending of traditional animation and computer-generated imagery. The elegant, romantic ballroom sequence, the dance sequence by the household articles and the cliff- hanger climax are wonderfully executed"

Will Oscar voters fall for `Beauty'? Chicago Sun-Times: "It is likely one or both of the songs "Beauty and the Beast" and "Be Our Guest" will be nominated"

Disney 'Toons in With Elaborate `Legacy in Song' "the surprisingly touching "Beauty and the Beast" last year's title song from the animated film of the same name, warbled by Angela Lansbury."

Studios Hit Jackpot with Animated Tales "When state-of-the-art animation mixes the right story, preferably a fairy tale, with Broadway quality tunes, something extraordinary happens. The images, semiabstract and glowing with deep, rich colors, can be strangely transporting. Reality vanishes, and the viewer enters into the chandelier-lit grand ballroom of a beast's castle or the intensely aquamarine underwater realm of a little mermaid."

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Split of Beauty and the Beast ballroom sequence

I still think that the way to make this article less cluttered and more streamlined is to made a distinction between the song itself, and the sequence in which it took place within the film. They have independently achieved a level of notability that, I believe, justifies separate articles. Obviously some of the content, especially the critical reception section when reviewers talk about the feeling they get from the visuals and music in tandem, but a little bit of overlapping content is fine if the topics are similar. In terms of development, there's a clear difference between work put into the song and single, and the sequence, before they were put together. I would hate for this article to be left unfinished. What are your thoughts @Changedforbetter:?--Coin (talk) 08:13, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

@Coin945: I don't disagree, but I'm simply no longer interested in contributing to or improve upon this article due to various circumstances. I've long since moved onto other projects that I find more fulfilling and less stressful; hopefully someone else might pick this one up.--Changedforbetter (talk) 16:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

That's fair. Do what makes you happy. :)--Coin945 (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Adding Lyrics

Is it prohibited to add lyrics of this song here ? Is there any copyright problem ? I added lyrics, it was removed , for copyright cause. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masud.pce (talk • contribs) 13:57, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Masud.pce: As I stated in the edit summary (check edit history): "Lyrics are copyrighted so including them is WP:COPYVIO". Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:24, 26 June 2019 (UTC)