Talk:Bee's Knees

Requested move 20 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 09:00, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

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The Bee's Knees → Bee's knees – WP:CONCISE, WP:NCCAPS, WP:MOSCAPS, WP:THE. All the variants I can think of redirect here (though some did not until today). They might as well redirect to the short version and without unnecessary stylization.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:04, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: changed to Support; see below. Without the definite article, "bee's knees" can refer to pollen baskets, structures on the hind legs of honeybees. This usage is specialized and somewhat rare in my experience, acknowledging that I am not a lexicographer. The beekeeper who I heard using it had learned English as a child in the 1920s, and likely was already familiar with the idiomatic expression for an outstanding example of cuteness or high quality, before taking up beekeeping as a hobby in his retirement. Pretty sure I also heard him using "the bee's roller skates" and "the cat's pajamas" similarly.
  Using "bee's knees" as a term of approval sounds strange, like something a non-native speaker might say. I believe this fits the "different meaning" case, which WP:THE does allow. I also believe that it will be difficult to make a serious, straight-faced argument that pollen baskets are the primary use of this expression. Just plain Bill (talk) 13:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  @Just plain Bill: Um, did you notice that this is a disambiguation page, not an article, and that it already includes pollen basket as one of the entries? And the entire point of a disambiguation page is listing "different meanings". In short, your oppose has nothing to do with this rename proposal, and appears to be responding to what you imagine the page is and contains, not what it actually is and contains. PS: The fact that you're generationally or dialectally unfamiliar with the slang phrase (which is the origin of most other entries on this page, and very well attested), is irrelevant; see WP:IDONTKNOWIT. While it is arguably silly, it's very real and dates to at least the 1920s (same goes for "the cat's meow" and various similar expressions).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:10, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  I am quite familiar with "the bee's knees", and agree that it seems to be the origin of the other entries on this dab page. In case you missed it, that was the whole point of mentioning the old beekeeper's likely familiarity with the slang prior to his (and presumably his apicultural peers') use of it to describe honeybee anatomy.

  I may have been unclear that what sounds silly is omitting the definite article, as in "this blivet is bee's knees, darling" which sounds like something Natasha Fatale would say to Boris Badenov. There is a generational hint for your amusement, I hope. That said, you may consider my opposition to be mild, even though I believe the primary usage includes the definite article. Whatever elicits the least astonishment on the part of the reader (or least annoyance, or fewest obstacles to navigation/searching) is the way to go here. Just plain Bill (talk) 18:07, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  See WP:THE, already cited in the OP. WP drops a leading "the" from things, unless they are integral parts of proper names: The Hague, The Lord of the Rings.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

  That's not the part of WP:THE that applies here. Where "bee's knees" and "the bee's knees" mean different things, using "the" would be permissible in the title of a WP article. It isn't an article; it's a wiktionary entry, so do whatever you want with this skimpily populated dab page. Deletion is one sensible choice, with hatnotes on a few relevant artcles, as previously suggested. Just plain Bill (talk) 10:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC) Never mind. Now I see Bee's knees as an appropriate search tag for the various possibilities. Might as well move it there. IMO the wiktionary entry makes it plain enough that "the" is an essential part of the expression. cheers, Just plain Bill (talk) 23:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

  Sure, but that's true in mid-sentence in running prose/speech, and it's true of a large number of things WP drops a leading "the" from in article titles. No one [who is a native English speaker] says "I am moving from West Coast to Rocky Mountains since I fear a tsunami coming from Pacific Ocean if there's another big quake in Japan." And The bee's knees already redirects here. So, there is no problem that is solved by keeping the article at the present title. It's just longer and more capitalized than necessary.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:38, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I have to question what this page accomplishes? We have:

A wiktionary definition; Bee's Knees (cocktail); Pollen basket; Johnny Gargano. (There is no mention of "bee's knees" at the article. A Google search shows that some wrestling wikis repeat this nickname for him, but I see it as a trivial mention at best.)

So only two Wikipedia articles actually refer to this phrase. Can't we use hatnotes? 162.208.168.92 (talk) 17:20, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Argh. Why will people not stay on topic? This is a move discussion. If you believe the disambiguation page should be deleted in favor of hatnotes, take that up at WP:MFD.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

• Weak support maybe the lowercase should have a primary topic but I agree otherwise the article and capitalization isn't currently needed per WP:DABNAME though most of the entries do appear to use the article it probably wouldn't be needed per WP:THE. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:36, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bee's Knees (cocktail) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bee's Knees which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:03, 1 December 2022 (UTC)