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Talk:Begotten (film)/Archive 2

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Latest comment: 4 years ago by Paleface Jack in topic Copy editing request
Archive 1Archive 2

GA Review

Latest comment: 4 years ago78 comments2 people in discussion
CLOSED
Result: Article has passed   the GA review. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 03:26, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: NowIsntItTime talk · contribs) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)


I will review this article in bits and pieces, for every section. Note that I have added my signature after each of my comments; this helps both distinguish it from the nominator's comments and to provide the dates between my review and their replies. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Prose

Opening lead

Let's start with the front and work our way down...

  • Much of the material coming from the first paragraph should be fit into the second paragraph. WP:FILMLEAD states a film article should open with the director, producers, and writers (in this case E. Elias Merhige is the writer, producer, editor, and director so no worries) cast, etc., so move all the information about the film's influence by Artaud and Nietzsche, and information about production down into said second paragraph to make room for: a brief summary of its general premise, or in the narrower sense what the film is supposed to entail, as I know its plot is less traditional and experimental from most films, to say the least. The themes of the film will REALLY have to come into play when completing the first paragraph with this summary. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • who later brought it to the attention of fellow critic Susan Sontag, whose praised the film. Hers would be one of the most publicized reviews of the film and would be instrumental in the film's eventual release. Please change the wording to something similar: "who brought it to the attention of fellow critic Susan Sontag, who wrote the film's most publicized review that was instrumental to its eventual release." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • It was followed by a short film sequel titled Din of Celestial Birds, which deals with the theory of evolution, and was released in 2006. Tweak it to something like this: "It was followed by a short film sequel in 2006, titled Din of Celestial Birds, which deals with the theory of evolution." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The film has become an influence on several avante garde and experimental films and has been cited by several artists as inspiration for some of their works. Add a hyphen between, and add "works" after "avante garde". Place commas like so: "The film has become an influence for several avante-garde works, experimental films, and has been cited by several artists as inspiration for some of their works." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Plot

  • The film opens with a robed, profusely bleeding figure (listed in the credits as God Killing Himself) disemboweling itself with a straight razor inside a small shack. After spastically removing some of his internal organs, the man soon dies and a woman, Mother Earth, emerges from the mutilated remains. The opening refers to inconsistent pronouns for God, such as using "itself", then later referring to Him as male. But the whole sentence needs to be adjusted to remove "The films opens with", and also without mention of a figure "listed in the credits as God Killing Himself" that is "profusely bleeding". Try to follow a similar pattern like so: "God, seen as a robed figure, mutilates and disembowels Himself inside a small shack with a straight razor, and removes His internal organs before dying. Mother Earth emerges from His remains." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The film then cuts to the woman, now visibly pregnant, standing beside a coffin of what presumably contains the man's corpse. Remove mention of "The film" and write it out like "She uses His semen to become pregnant, and God is placed in His coffin." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wandering off into a vast and barren landscape, the woman later gives birth. Her child, a malformed convulsing man, listed in the credits as Son of Earth, is soon abandoned by his mother, who leaves him to his own devices. I should mention to change use of words like "woman", a singular "mother", etc., to Mother Earth whenever it makes sense for the sake of consistency with the character names, though this specific use is fine. Change mention of "Son of Earth" also to something like this: "the woman later gives birth to Son of Earth, a malformed convulsing man. The man is soon abandoned by his mother, who leaves him to his own devices." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Later they throw the man into a fire pit where he burns to death. Son of Earth is later resurrected by Mother Earth, who comforts her newly reborn offspring before they both continue across the barren landscape. Remove "Later" in both sentences. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The nomads soon reappear and proceed to brutally beat the Son of Earth as Mother Earth stands in a trance-like state. The nomads soon turn their attention to her, knocking her to the ground before proceeding to brutally rape and murder her as her son watches helplessly nearby. replace "brutally beat" with "attack", and remove the "brutally" next to "rape". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • After completing the grisly task, the group then returns to murder and disembowel her son, [...] Use this wording: "Afterwards, the group returns to murder and disembowel her son, [...]"}} -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • As time passes, the burial site soon becomes lush with flowers as grainy photographs of God Killing Himself are shown. Remove "Killing Himself". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Cast

Themes

No issues.

Death and rebirth

No issues.

Religion, mythology, and the occult

  • Lindenberger also noted the film's inclusion of themes taken from Christianity such as the "buried god", his resurrection, and the inclusion of god's mother. I'm concerned that the link (that I purposely included in the quote) leads to Mary, mother of Jesus rather than the 'mythos' "Mother Earth" that is portrayed in the film's plot if there is any distinction between the two. The captioned image links to the Earth goddess, but is there some clarification as to whether she is the mother of God (Mary) or her? Just want your input so I can clear it up in my mind. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Influences

  • Merhige would also list Georges Franju’s documentary short Blood of the Beasts as an inspiration for the visual style of the film. As well as Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, Stan Brakhage's The Act of Seeing with One's Own Eyes, and the German expressionist film The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari. add a comma where the period is now, so it reads: "[...] as an inspiration for the visual style of the film, as well as Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, [...]" -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Production

Development and pre-production

  • Begotten was written, produced, and directed by Edmund Elias Merhige, with development for the film beginning in the mid-to-late 1980s (although some sources list the date as 1984). Change to "Begotten was written, produced, and directed by Merhige [...]", to conform with the casting link (mentioned above). -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The film was originally intended for the film to be a theatre production, [...] A mistake was made. Fix it by removing "for the film". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Merhige and members of Theatre of Material would perform breathing exercises as a group, then examining the experience afterwards. change to "Merhige and the members from Theatre of Material would perform breathing exercises and examine the experience afterward." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Filming

  • Principal photography took place over a period of three and a half months in the mid to late 1980s in several different locations, with Merhige filling multiple roles in the film's production including working on the film's cinematography, and special effects, and was shot using a 16mm Arriflex camera on black and white reversal film. Cut the sentence in half, and re-arrange some stuff for a better, more fluent sentence. The first half can be changed to "Principal photography took place in the mid to late 1980s, over a period of three and a half months, in several different locations.", and then the next sentence "Merhige filled multiple roles in the film's production, including work on the special effects and cinematography, the latter of which was done by using a 16mm Arriflex camera on black and white reversal film." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The sentence "Merhige had previously worked on several short film subjects before developing Begotten. These short films included Implosion (1983), Spring Reign (1984), and A Taste of Youth (1985)." had pretty much already been mentioned in the sub-section above, so please remove it. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The sequence was then edited together and shown to the cast and crew, whose reactions to the footage was very enthusiastic: "I think it proved to everyone that this was an important film, that there really was nothing else like it, and we were actually going to make it happen." Who is speaking here? Merhige? Please clarify whose quote this is. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • A majority of the film was shot at a construction site on the border between New York City, and New Jersey, where Merhige had been given permission to shoot when the construction crews weren't working, for a period of twenty days. Remove two misplaced commas, and arrange the syntax so that it reads: "A majority of the film was shot at a construction site on the border between New York City and New Jersey, where Merhige had been given permission to shoot for a period of twenty days when the construction crews were not working." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Funding for the film came from a trust fund set up by Merhige's grandfather for getting into medical school, [...] use a sentence like this instead: "Funding for the film came from Merhige's grandfather, who had set Merhige up with a trust fund for medical school." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Merhige later described his experience while working on the film as being powerful and one that was both transformative, and ritualistic that changed the lives of all those involved with the project. it feels a little bloated, but can probably be brought back down with "Merhige described working on the film as powerful, and an experience that was transformative, ritualistic, and life changing to the people involved." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 05:28, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Post production

  • The optical printer was constructed by Merhige himself over a period of eight months using old, spare parts that he acquired from camera stores and special effects houses that he had worked on and off at. Change to "The optical printer was constructed over a period of eight months by Merhige himself, who would use old spare parts acquired from camera stores and special effects houses where he had worked." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Most of the film was developed in a small developing studio located on 48th Street called Kin-O-Lux Labs, which was run by German immigrant Fred Schreck (no relation to famed German actor Max Schreck). Fred Schreck had immigrated from Germany right after World War II before working at Kin-O-Lux Labs. Please combine these sentences so that the line looks like "Most of the film was developed in a small developing studio located on 48th Street called Kin-O-Lux Labs, run by German immigrant Fred Schreck (no relation to famed German actor Max Schreck) who had immigrated from Germany after the end of World War II." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Merhige had met the elderly Schreck while he was developing test footage for the film which was shot at a different temperature than normally done. I'm confused as to what the last part of the sentence is trying to say here. Please clarify what is meant by footage that has been "shot at a different temperature". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Merhige had been turned down by various studios where he tried to have the footage developed before going to Kin-O-Luz. "Kin-O-Lux", as it is written consistently, is spelled wrong here. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Schreck immediately took a liking to the director and allowed Merhige to use the lab to develop the footage also teaching him how to hand-develop the footage. Add a comma and continuation: "Schreck immediately took a liking to the director and allowed Merhige to use the lab to develop footage, while also teaching him how to hand-develop the footage. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 02:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Release

Distribution

  • During this time Merhige would show it to possible distributors in hopes of getting the film released, [...] comma between "time" and "Merhige". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • After a while of failing to gain distribution Merhige worked as the film's distributor for a time, taking it to a number of museums in hopes of eventually finding someone willing to distribute it. Add a comma between "distribution" and "Merhige". Then instead of saying something like "eventually finding someone willing to distribute it.", use " eventually finding a distributor." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • In the end, only two distributors showed any interest in the film, but both were turned down by Merhige who felt that they were not up for the job. At the end of the sentence, use some better wording. Something like "both were turned down by Merhige, who felt that they were not the right choice." It sounds a little more formal than "up for the job", in my opinion. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Sontag, an influential and controversial critic famous for her essays on photography, culture, and media, including various political topics, [...] remove the comma between "media" and "various political topics" like so: "photography, culture, and media that included various political topics, [...]". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Her (Susan Sontag) review of the film, where her praise for the film would become one of the most publicized reviews of the film, would be instrumental for the film's eventual release. "film" is used four times in the sentence, along with some very choppy wording. Try holding back on that, and say something like "Her review, where praise was given toward the film, would become one of the most publicized reviews and instrumental for its eventual release." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Theatrical release

  • Starting from the Brooklyn's Spectacle Theater release, move that and everything below it to the top of the bottom paragraph. This will separate its initial releases from its later releases and makes it look much cleaner. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Try to use one noun after the other in each sentence when talking about the film. What I mean is, use kind of a chain as you write out the article: "It was shown at the Music Box Theatre in Midtown Manhattan on September 25, 2016, during a 25th Anniversary celebration of the film where it was screened from Merhige's personal 16mm print. The film was viewed as a double-feature alongside the director's other film Shadow of the Vampire and was followed by a Q&A by Merhige. It was later screened at the Short Film Festival in London on January 8, 2017; where it was shown in its original 16mm format, accompanied by a live music score. The film was screened on October 17, 2019, at the Rice Media Center as a part of a celebration of "Low-Fi" Analog film series."
Do you see how I brought back in "The film", instead of always titling "it"? The current article keeps referring to Begotten as "It" just too many times in the second paragraph. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • It was later screened at the Short Film Festival in London on January 8, 2017; where it was shown in its original 16mm format, accompanied with a live music score from the film. I don't know if this was a mistake, but I want to make it clear that a semicolon is really just meant to bridge the gap between two sentences when their relevance to each other and structure permits it, not as a replacement for the colon. If you want to use the semicolon, remove the word "where". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Home media

  • Merhige eventually warmed up to the idea of releasing the film on home video; feeling that the original soundtrack mix, which he had not been completely satisfied with, could be enhanced through the medium. again, this is the wrong usage of a semicolon. This is a incredibly common mistake on how it is used, though I'd suggest checking out this Grammarly blog on proper usage of the semicolon. To use it properly here, change "feeling that" to "he felt that". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • It was later given a very limited DVD release by World Artists on February 20, 2001. The release included a souvenir booklet, the original theatrical trailer for the film, rare, never-before-seen movie stills and production photos. Join the two sentences together, and add a comma between "stills" and "and", like so "It was later given a very limited DVD release by World Artists on February 20, 2001, which included a souvenir booklet, the original theatrical trailer for the film, rare, never-before-seen movie stills, and production photos. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • On July 29, 2016, director Merhige announced via Instagram that the film would be released for the first time on Blu-ray in Fall of that same year. However, the distribution deal seemed to have fallen through, and no new updates were given.
During the film's 25th Anniversary screening alongside Shadow of the Vampire at Music Box Theatre in Midtown Manhattan, Merhige again announced that the film would soon receive a Blu-ray release. The release did not occur as announced.
Join these paragraphs together, as they are both talking about the expected Blu-ray release, and it makes no sense to separate them. After that, combine the announcements by changing this part of the paragraph's end to "However, the distribution deal fell through, and a second announcement during the film's 25th-anniversary screening alongside Shadow of the Vampire at Music Box Theatre in Midtown Manhattan did not provide a release either." Remember to remove the capitalized first letter for "anniversary" too. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Reception

Critical Reception

  • Merhige was initially afraid that audiences would misunderstand the film or not understand the film altogether, [...] Isn't "misunderstanding" and "not understanding" the same thing? Given, this sentence is probably trying to making the distinction between misunderstanding elements and misunderstanding the whole film, because of the word "altogether" used afterwards, so maybe there should be a better versed sentence to describe this? Try "Merhige was initially afraid that audiences would misunderstand parts, or the entire film altogether, [...]" if that is what he's saying. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The limited reviews on the film have been mixed to positive, with some critics calling it a masterpiece, praising the film's unique visual style, and resonating themes; while others have criticized these same merits along with its brutal violence, and running time. Remove "while" and the comma between "violence" and "and". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Marc Savlov from the Austin Chronicle called the film "Experimental, haunting, dreamlike, and intentionally confounding". Also writing, "Merhige's stylized nightmare/dreamscape is a calculatedly misbegotten travelogue through Hell, accompanied by a jittery, muffled soundtrack of caterwauling crickets, doomed souls and worse." Add a comma between these two sentences, then "also" will be used properly. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Sterritt also noted the film's claustrophobic feelings, and dark narrative, [...] remove the comma between "feelings" and "and". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Angelo from BloodyGoodHorror.com gave the film a positive review; stating in his review, [...] change the last bit to "he stated in his review". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • "In a way, it inspires so much emotion on such a deep and raw level, it’s a moving and poignant film. However, the message it makes is not pretty. You will see the horrors that man is capable of in shockingly graphic detail. But if you’re like me, and wondering if you’ve been desensitized after years of horror flicks, it’ll show you whether you can still feel or not". This is quite a lot of direct quote, haha. Either trim Angelo's words down to be less than 3 sentences, or merge what he says about inspiring emotion, and how poignant and moving he thought it was into the beginning of the sentence. You don't absolutely have to, but seriously consider also doing this with some of the quotes used in the article. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Mexican film critic Marco González Ambriz called the film “magnificent” and a must-see “for anyone interested in the cinematic avant-garde”. Although he also noted that many viewers would likely find the film unbearable. add a comma instead of a period to join these sentences. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • In a particularly scathing review Gonsalves, who referred to Merhige as ‘[a] bullshit artist (as opposed to a true artist)’, criticized the film's running time as being overlong, and visual style as being empty and repetitive while also negatively comparing it to David Lynch's Eraserhead. Remove the word "scathing", as it sounds biased, and also add commas throughout like so "In the review, Gonsalves, who referred to Merhige as "[a] bullshit artist" (as opposed to a true artist), criticized the film's running time as being long and its visual style as being empty and repetitive while also negatively comparing it to David Lynch's Eraserhead." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Legacy

  • The parts calling it a cult classic, mention of the bootleg "copy-cult", and how it's banned in Singapore need not be fixed, but they should be incorporated into the lead in the third paragraph, as they are really interesting. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The film's critical success also proved to be a starting point for Merhige's filmmaking career,[22] who would go on to make the much praised Shadow of the Vampire[79] and Suspect Zero, the latter was released to negative reviews. Just add the word "although" between "Zero," and "the". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Manson was a huge admirer of Begotten, which he called, "one of the strangest and scariest films I've seen", and had personally contacted Merhige to ask him if he would be willing to direct the music video for his song "Cryptorchid". Merhige would end up directing music videos for both "Cryptorchid" and "Antichrist Superstar". Mention of Cryptorchid's music video in the first half of this sentence is fine, as it points out which music video Manson asked him to direct, but the latter half has already been including in the first sentence "Merhige was later hired by singer Marilyn Manson to direct music videos for his songs "Antichrist Superstar" and "Cryptorchid", [...]". Please remove the sentence as it is redundant. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Din of Celestial Birds

  • The second film in the trilogy, a 14-minute short titled Din of Celestial Birds, was shot in similar visual fashion as Begotten. The word "a" can be included between "in" and "similar". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • [...] "I stripped my idea down to its simplest form and peeled my crew back to people I trust- my friends- [...] an em dash should be used here: "[...] I stripped my idea down to its simplest form and peeled my crew back to people I trust—my friends—[...]". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The film opens with the text that reads: "hello and welcome ... do not be afraid ... be comforted ... remember ... our origin..." This is followed by images depicting the first violent formation of matter from nothingness. add a comma after the quote, and remove "this is". Maybe just refer to the "violent formation of matter from nothingness" as simply, "images depicting the Big Bang." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Influence

  • Jimmy Joe Roche's 2018 experimental short film Skin of Man was said to have been influenced by Begotten. try adding two commas before and after "Skin of Man": "Jimmy Joe Roche's 2018 experimental short film, Skin of Man, was said to have been influenced by Begotten." -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • In an article written for ARTnews American music artist Zola Jesus credited Begotten as one of the inspirations for her 2017 music album Okovi. add a comma between "ARTnews" and "American". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
  • [...] performers Dave Esposito and G. E. Schwartz mixed portions of Merhige's Begotten with the 1910 film Frankenstein in accompaniment with live guitar music, electronic soundscapes, [...] needs a comma between "Frankenstein" and "in". -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Image use

Free use

Non-free use

  • Two images, File:Begotten,1990 film, screenshot.jpg and File:Din of Celestial Birds, Sep 2006, film poster.jpg, have incomplete rationales.
For the screenshot, you can just follow the layout of Template:Non-free use rationale. It would help to fill in the rationales by taking a look at the wording of other article screenshots and then writing it out. This is the same for the film poster but instead with Template:Non-free use rationale poster. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 15:43, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Reference use

The "Bibliography" table has both websites and books together in an (incredibly impressive) alphabetical order. Consider switching its name with "References", so that the names are more appropriate. Also move the top citation table, after the name swap, move the top table down below so the bottom becomes the top table (and notes are fine the way they are).

No issues.

Copyvio check

Copyvio possible, but using the compare tool shows this isn't the case.

-NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 04:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)


Author Response

Thanks for taking the time to review this article, it's much appreciated. I will keep this short in terms of clarification and resolving issues that you've pointed out. I did the edits to the lead paragraph as you suggested, as well as some minor rewrites to the plot section. The beginning paragraph now reads: Inside a small shack, a robed figure, God Killing Himself, proceeds to disembowel himself with a straight razor. After removing some of His internal organs, God dies and a woman, Mother Earth, emerges from the mutilated remains. Bringing the corpse to arousal, she uses His semen to impregnate herself. Time passes and Mother, now visibly pregnant, stands beside a coffin of what presumably contains God's corpse. Wandering off into a vast and barren landscape, Mother later gives birth to Son of Earth, a malformed convulsing man. The man is soon abandoned by his mother, who leaves him to his own devices.

After an untold period of time wandering across the barren landscape, the Son of Earth later encounters a group of faceless nomads who seize him by his umbilical cord. Upon being captured, the Son of Earth begins vomiting up organic pieces that the nomads excitedly accept as gifts. The nomads then throw the man into a fire pit where he burns to death. Son of Earth is then resurrected by Mother Earth, who comforts her newly reborn offspring before they both continue across the barren landscape. The nomads soon return and proceed to attack the Son of Earth as Mother Earth stands in a trance-like state. The nomads soon turn their attention to her, knocking her to the ground before proceeding to rape and murder her as her son watches helplessly nearby.

Once the nomads have left, a group of robed figures arrives and carry away Mother Earth's mutilated remains, where they are disemboweled. Afterwards, the group then returns to murder and disembowel her son, burying the pieces of both mother and son into the crust of the earth. As time passes, the burial site soon becomes lush with flowers as grainy photographs of God Killing Himself are shown. Mother Earth and Son of Earth are seen again in a flashback, this time wandering through a forest.

PLEASE NOTE: God Killing Himself needs to remain the name of the character as he is listed as such in the credits.

Hope this all helps.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

The lead looks good; it is now much better than before. If the character of God's name needs to be listed as the name used in the credits, I'm fine with that. The only issue I see is the end of sentence Time passes and Mother, now visibly pregnant, stands beside a coffin of what presumably contains God's corpse. The word "presumably" implies that it's not made clear, when "God Killing Himself's" death was clearly laid out for us. Consider clearing this up with a different word to avoid confusion about who has died.
Forgot to mention to change the red links in the lead and the one in the infobox. But otherwise, the changes look good.
I will review the rest of the article soon. Stay tuned! -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 20:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Note for @Paleface Jack: I re-read the first paragraph, and I felt I didn't really know what the story was about. So...after the sentence "It stars Brian Salsburg, Donna Dempsy, Stephen Charles Barry, and members of Merhige's theatre company Theatre of Material.", add a brief summary consisting of something along the lines of "Begotten's story is a depiction of creation, with God's death allowing the birth of Mother Earth and Son of Earth, and their subsequent death allowing for rebirth (or change)." It was kinda tricky for me to catch what it needed, and I apologize for bringing it up just now.
You may also want to go through the article and take out each of the contractions, save for in quotations where they were part of the quote, as I've noticed some here and there in the actual prose. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 22:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

How about this for the first paragraph: "It stars Brian Salsburg, Donna Dempsy, Stephen Charles Barry, and members of Merhige's theatre company Theatre of Material. The film contains no dialogue, being designed to mimic the style of aged black-and-white films. Incorporating events and themes from various creation myths, Begotten centers on the death of God, and the subsequent birth of Mother Earth and Son of Earth, following their journey of death and rebirth through a barren landscape."

Also confused what you mean by contractions. Could you provide an example in the article? --Paleface Jack (talk) 16:41, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Much better...thank you!
Contractions are when two words are combined, but one or two letters are removed to shorten it, like a vowel being replaced with an apostrophe. Here is an example: the word "can not" being shortened to "can't", or "let's" instead of "let us". One of the contractions used in this article comes from lines like these [...] where Merhige had been given permission to shoot when the construction crews weren't working, [...]. Contractions aren't used on Wikipedia except for direct quotes. Now, you may end up searching a list of contractions just to familiarize yourself with them, and I should mention there is also a distinction from words with "'s" at the end of them like "Earth’s" and "director's", which are fine to use as they aren't -> are not shortened. Hope this helps! -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 17:23, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:38, 21 November 2019 (UTC) Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:05, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Completed and fixed all the issues you listed. I did add a little extra to the "Mary" reference as MacDonald pointed out the character represented nature or God as nature, which should hopefully clarify the issue. I also adjusted the image files for the non-free images and removed the temperature mentioning as I could not find a reason for it, even though it's in the interview. Hope this all helps.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:52, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

There is no link for Merhige in the casting section, and he is still given an introduction in the production section as if this is where he is introduced. Move where he is linked back to the Cast section, and remove the first part "Edmund Elias" from Development and pre-production.
File:Begotten, 1990 film, screenshot.jpg still has one incomplete rationale: "Respect for commercial opportunities". Please fill it in so I can check it off the review table. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Completed all of the edits. I did change the Angelo quote to read: he stated in his review, In a way, it inspires so much emotion on such a deep and raw level, it’s a moving and poignant film. However, the message it makes is not pretty— But if you’re like me, and wondering if you’ve been desensitized after years of horror flicks, it’ll show you whether you can still feel or not".--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Perfect. I'll check that off in the review table. So now just attend to the two issues I've provided above and I will make my assessments. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 16:56, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Review table

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
  1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
  1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
  2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
  2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
  2c. it contains no original research.
  2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. The Copyvio detector said three violations were possible. But when you compare them, the "copy-violations" are in the form of quotes and words that are used and referenced properly. I'm confident this part is all right.
3. Broad in its coverage:
  3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
  3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
  4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
  5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
  6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
  6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
  7. Overall assessment. The nominator has done a tremendous job on the article and has moved swiftly to address each issue, and with that said, I am confident in passing the article. Great work!  

To the editor: a complete copyedit of the article would help any remaining sentence issues and other grammatical errors that may have been overlooked. Once you have done that, I recommend you submit this article to potentially stand as a Featured Article. Godspeed, and the best of luck. -NowIsntItTime(chats)(doings) 03:26, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Copy editing request

Latest comment: 4 years ago15 comments3 people in discussion

[The following exchanges were copied from Pdebee’s talk page.]

Hello Pdebee, I have been working on expanding an article on the 1989 experimental film Begotten for a while now, and I have recently gotten it up to GA status. My goal is to get it up to FA status as soon as possible, however, it requires some copy editing done to it before I can nominate it. I was wondering if you would be able to perform the necessary copy edits to it so I can get the ball rolling for FA nomination. Please let me know as soon as possible if you are or are not able to do it.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:29, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Dear Jack,  
Thank you very much for making contact, and for your request. I'd be delighted to assist and would be able to complete the copy edit review by noon tomorrow, UK time; would that be convenient to you? BTW, in what time zone are you located, please? Here is an earlier example of how I tend to collaborate, but I am happy to fit in with your own preferences. For your project on Begotten, I would use its talk page to communicate with you. Finally, if I decide to apply small changes in content, then I would activate {{in use}} & {{under construction }} templates, and remove them when I'm done; this is to avoid potential edit conflicts. Please let me know if all this suits your purposes or not, and we'll take it from there. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to your initiative.
With kind regards for now;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 20:00, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
That all fine I'm in Pacific USA Timezone (PSA) by the way. I might not get back to you right away, but I will definitely respond by Wednesday. Thanks for letting me know.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:12, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

[The following exchanges were copied from Jack's talk page:]

To: Paleface Jack
Copy: NowIsntItTime

Dear Jack,  

As you requested, I have reviewed the present article and would like to congratulate you on the excellent job done by you, with additional forensic advice from our colleague NowIsntItTime in the above section; well done!

Since you asked me to copy edit the current version of the article, I'd be happy to do so and have spotted a few things I could reword slightly, though nothing major. However, the following item, in Cast, would still benefit from further improvements on your part, as I'd prefer to defer to your subject matter expertise.

Cast
The last paragraph was confusing to me, as I first thought the word direct was a verb but then I concluded it might be a typo of director, considering that the verb in this long sentence seems to be provided, which appears quite late:
Members of writer, producer, direct Edmund Elias Merhige's theatre company Theatre of Material which included Adolpho Vargas, Arthur Streeter, Daniel Harkins, Erik Slavin, James Gandia, Michael Phillips, and Terry Andersen provided additional credits for other characters in the film such as the Nomads and Robed Figures.
Perhaps the following rewrite might work better, since the reader will already know much about Merhige's multiple activities in this work (he is also already wikilinked in the lead section):
"Members of Merhige's theatre company Theatre of Material – which included Adolpho Vargas, Arthur Streeter, Daniel Harkins, Erik Slavin, James Gandia, Michael Phillips, and Terry Andersen – provided additional credits for other characters in the film such as the Nomads and Robed Figures."
But I'll let you decide what that paragraph should read like.

The only other item for you to reconsider is the structure of sections in the article's back matter.

Currently, you have the following structure:
See also
Notes - containing additional notes that expand on the inline prose
References - containing a list of all sources (13 books with ISBNs, plus lots of websites)
Citations - citations referring back to the books and websites
Further reading
Without prejudice to the advice previously given by our colleague NowIsntItTime, I would suggest you consider the following structure, per MOS:NOTES:
See also
References
Notes - containing additional notes that expand on the inline prose
Citations - citations referring back to the books and websites
Sources - containing a list of all sources (13 books with ISBNs, plus lots of websites)
Further reading
I hope this visual example will make sense. If in doubt, please look at the example of the article on the 1959 film Ben-Hur (which has Bibliography instead of Sources as a section heading, seeing as most of its contents are indeed books).

I hope this helps for now. When you've considered (and possibly applied) the above changes, I'll return to the article and apply the copy editing you requested, which shouldn't take me very long.
With kind regards for now;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 17:48, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! I took care of the changes you mentioned, so hopefully, that all helps. Don't know what would be worthwhile to post as a possible DYK.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

To: Jack
Copy: Ryan

Dear Jack,  

Speedy good work; well done. I'll do the copy editing first thing tomorrow morning (UK time), as I am needed elsewhere this evening. I'll send you another update when I am done; thank you for your patience with me, Jack.
By copy to Ryan: Long time no speak; hope you are keeping well?   If my memory is correct, I think it was you who advised me some time ago about DYK, but I can't remember where or when. Please may I impose on you and ask you to advise Jack on what to select from the subject article, for posting as a possible DYK? I also seem to remember that there was a timing factor involved but, again, I don't remember the details. Thank you so much for any assistance you can extend to Jack.
With kind regards for now;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 20:01, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Hey there, Pdebee and Jack. Happy to help if you want it. Nice job getting this to GA -- it's one that's actually been on my watchlist (as in movies to watch, not the WP watchlist) for some years now. The article automatically qualifies for DYK since it just passed GA and has not previously appeared on the main page. There is a rather strict 7 day time limit from the day/time it was promoted to GA to submit the nomination. You'll want to pull out one or two of the most interesting facts for the "hook", being sure that they are directly supported by sources. For an article like this, there's no shortage of interesting bits you could choose. Feel free to ping with any specific questions if you want. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:28, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Rhododendrites I'm still a bit confused as to the sources format even after looking over the guidelines. Perhaps you can clarify this for me. Sincerely, --Paleface Jack (talk)

I'm not sure what you mean by sources format? In the article or in the DYK? There is a suggestion that you include the source along with the hook, but it's not a requirement. As long as the claim is sourced in the article, you can include it as a hook in the DYK. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:14, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

To: Jack
Copy: NowIsntItTime

Dear Jack,  
  Done!
I have just completed the copy editing you requested, which took longer than I anticipated but there was more to do than seemed at first glance. However, I have mainly polished the existing content and most of my changes were tiny things (like straightening curly apostrophes, etc.) and I have attempted to preserve as much as the existing content as possible, while trying to add value to the prose by removing repetitions and streamlining the flow of the text. All my edit summaries will enable you to assess quite easily the changes I have applied and, if there is anything with which you might disagree, then it should be quite straightforward for you to change it back manually, since I don't tend to group too many changes in a single edit. By the way, I have also checked the hyphens in all your 'isbn=' parameters and am very impressed that they were all correct!  
I wish you well in your goal to achieve FA, and thank you once again for asking me to participate.
With kind regards:
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 00:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

[The following exchanges were copied from Pdebee’s talk page.]

Looked over the finished copy edits. I'm quite impressed with all the work you did with it. I only have one minor question:
The Influence sub-section you changed it into a list so as to avoid any repetition. Personally, bullet points are an issue for me (with the exception of critics/awards lists, soundtrack, and cast listings). I was wondering if there was another way to do it so that it's in a paragraph format? I can do that myself considering all the work you already put into it. I can't thank you enough for all the help you did. Happy editing!
Sincerely,
Your Friendly Neigborhood editor --Paleface Jack (talk) 01:35, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
To: Jack / Copy: NowIsntItTime
Dear Jack,  
So glad that you found my contributions useful; thank you. I would be very happy to have another go at re-writing the Influence sub-section in paragraph format. Another alternative that has occurred to me would be a simple table, but I'll work on the former later today. As I am sure you realize, the previous version of the prose was extremely repetitive and warranted a re-write. But I'll do my best after lunch, in a couple of hours, and will set up the 'in use' templates as usual, to avoid edit conflicts.
Thank you for bringing your preference to my attention; it will be an interesting challenge!  
With kind regards for now;
Your friendly copy editor; 
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 13:13, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I did a little look around on other FA Class Film articles. If you want you could take a look at that just as a point of reference, I sort of did that when I was referencing and structuring the article. Hope this helps. Thanks for the additional help.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:19, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Just a heads up, I was working on the Influence section in the article before I saw that you were already working on it. What I came up with was a more simplified version than what I had previously had in the section. My idea I had while I was starting to structure it was to sort the information into artists influenced by the film and similarities between the film and other works that critics have pointed out. I also looked over the sources again and I extracted a quote from artist Zola Jesus. Here is what I had before noticing what you already did (Please note that this is not completely structured yet as I did not get to that part yet) Enjoy!:
In an interview with Muzzeland Press, visual artist and musician Rob Stanley cited the film's dark imagery as one of the influences for his artwork.[1]
American music artist Zola Jesus, and lead singer Dimitri Giannopoulos, from the American rock band Horse Jumper Of Love, have stated during interviews that Begotten was a major influence on their more recent albums. When giving a list of artists that influenced her 2017 music album Okovi, Jesus listed the film as a major inspiration, writing, “for months on end I had E. Elias Merhige’s 1990 film Begotten on loop. I’d sit in my dark room being lit by nothing but the screen’s caustic frames. It was my closest friend during my darkest moments and a scream I couldn’t let out on my own. I’ve never felt so directly inspired by a piece of art before.”[2]

References

  1. ^ Raab 2016.
  2. ^ Jesus 2016.
--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
To: Jack / Copy: NowIsntItTime
Dear Jack,  
Thank you for your two updates in the above posts (indented, per WP:THREAD). As you probably noticed, I decided to restore your original prose and start again. In addition to straightening curly apostrophes and quotation marks, I first restructured everything in chronological order and kept the influences on the music world segregated in the final paragraph.
I then copy edited your original prose, trying to keep as much as possible while essentially reducing the elements of obvious repetition, thus trying to give the resulting text a pleasant and easy flow. Finally, I incorporated the latest prose suggestions you included above, and I therefore think we're done.  
If you wish to make more changes, then please feel free to go ahead, and I'll keep the article in my watchlist for now. Of course, I remain happy to assist some more if necessary.
Best wishes of good luck for FA, and please keep well and happy.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 20:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the hard work. After I get this and several others run through GA and FA status I might collaborate with you on some other articles.--Paleface Jack (talk) 23:40, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
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