Talk:Belgaum/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Rewriting

This article needs major re-writing. It has been taken from the 1911 encyclopedia, and a lot of details in this article are actually from 1911 - it is completely and woefully outdated. Will do something to remedy this in the next few days. --ashwatha 02:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC) Marathi language is not widely spoken as told here.Its 50-50 Marathi,Kannada. Belgaum is one of the beutiful place in Karnataka.The weather is cool throughout the year. In winters,the temperature will be same as Ooty.

• Added attractions --jb 02:48, 9 Sept 2005 (CST)

Good article.

The information displayed is completely biased and should be changed immidiately. The Belgaum(or beLgav) is dominated by Marathi speaking population and Kannadi is hardly spoken there.Belgaum issue is subjudice and no pro-kannadi claims should be made.

--- Who says there are 50% Kannada people in Belgaum? People hardly speak Kannadda in Belgaum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.18.207 (talk • contribs)

Maharashtra Ekikaran Samiti (MES), a political party of marathi people, has won has won 7-8 MLA seats in the past. At present there are 3 MLA belonging to MES. MES has ruled Belgaum Municipal Corporation all the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.18.207 (talk • contribs)

Military base

A few more details about the military base could be added.

It has one of the only two commando training centers in India. (The other being in Madhya Pradesh)

Kannadi?

Its Kannada and it is atleast a thousand years older than your language.

Dinesh Kannambadi

--- You call it Kannadda, marathi people call it Kanadi. What are you trying to prove by saying it is 1000 years old? Do you think Kanada or Kanadi should replace Hindi/English as National languages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.18.207 (talk • contribs)

Kannadi or kannada

Whatever it is!!! Thousand year older??who said it!If it is so what?Tamil is even more older.And BTW Marathi speakers are more in numbers than Kannadi. Raajiv.

Kannadi or kannada

This is incivil, offensive and needless. What do you mean by "stay where you are"?? Please adhere to WP:Civil. Your point will be better carried if you remain civil and respect each other. ImpuMozhi 17:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Mr Impumozhi whoever you are, your post betrays your bias. The uncivil nature of rajeev or whoever's remarks is there for everyone to see. And Mr. Dinesh has only responded in kind. If you are really so concerned about civility and political correctness on WP you ought to speak to the instigator first and then to Mr. Dinesh. Also what is it about "Stay where u are" that irks you and I also dont understand why Dinesh has to apologize for that. The way I understood that sentence is.. "It doesnt matter whether Marathis are more in number or Kannadigas are more in number or Bengalis or Swahilis or Santalis are more in number(in Belagavi), Belagavi will be part of Karnataka. As long as these Marathis are living in Belagavi, they are living in Karnataka." Whats wrong with that? It is just a statement of fact.

@ above Whats Belgavi????Belgav will be a part of Maharashtra for sure.U guys are free to cry whatever u want.Belgav is Maharashtrians-dominated and it has to be merged with Maharashtra.Forget about swahili or zulu,think abt Kodavis and Tulus who live in K'nataka.U have grabbed their land also!

---Hello Dinesh and whoever supporting dinesh's statement. Do some research on the history of Belgav. Belgav was part of then Bombay presidency after independence. Before independence it was a part of the Sangli Sansthan. Belgav was included in Karnataka only because of administrative convenience. And you will see soon it will be a part of Maharashtra again. Marathi people are living where they are from generations. Better kanadis also stay where they are, that is in Mysore. Don't come to Belgav Jobs and shelter. I know Karnataka govt and these kanadi people from mysore will not leave Belgav so easily because they don't have many good cities like Belgav. But these Kanadi people should know that Karnataka is not a country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.18.207 (talk • contribs)

My apologies

Sorry for using tough words like "stay where you are". you just irked me by saying "Kannadi" and did not apologise. Kannada is one of the great languages of the world and will soon be recognized as a classical language. It has a proven written (archeologically) existance of about 1900 years and a spoken history of 2500 years and I am not talking about proto-Kannada. At the end of the day, we all need to realise that Maharashtra cannot have the apple and eat it too. If it wants a part of Belgaum, it has to give up a part of Sholapur. This is the premise of the Mahajan commission. No amount of Jingoism or Chauvanism can change geographic boundaries unless there is give and take or the Marathis of Belgaum have to hold there peace and move on with life. Sorry again about the remark i made. It simply goes against Kannada culture to exclude people from our midst. Dinesh

Dinesh, you dont have to apologize for anything. And just to correct you, even according to the Mahajan report, there is no question of giving up Belgavi. Even the Mahajan report contended that Belagavi would remain with K'taka. Also this 'fact' about Marathis outnumbering Kannadigas is actually a myth. Marathis may well in fact, outnumber Kannadigas a bit in Belagavi city, but Kannadigas are still the majority in Belagavi district. Here the issue like you said, is purely of Maharashtra wanting to have the cake and eat it too. They want both the industrialised and agriculturally rich parts bordering Ktaka and MH irrespective of whether the Mahajan committee report agrees with them or not.

---I did not know you are so ignorant. Your statement 'Kannada people outnumber Marathi in Belgaum district' is laughable. It seems you are so much afraid that Karnataka might lose the entire Belgav district and thus consoling yourself. For your information, nobody has claimed the entire Belgav district; nobody denies that Kanadis are more in "Belgaum district". Maharashtra has claimed about 600 villages and Belgav city, and not the entire district. And if you are talking about Solapur; better you visit and check the situation by yourself. Although, some percentage of people speak Kannadda, they have no desire of going in Karnataka. You will not hear a single voice demanding Solapur to be included in Karnataka. You should know that states in India have been formed based on languages, so it is the right of people living in Belgav that their state language should be Marathi. The only way of stopping Belgav becoming a part of Maharashtra is changing the state language of Karnatak from Kanadi to Marathi. The question remains if Karnatak govt and the Kanadi people from Mysore will accept it. BTW, I did not get why one should apologize for saying kanaddi? Is it derogatory? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.18.207 (talk • contribs)

Belgaum - Karnataka or Maharashtra Dineshkannambadi 20:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have read all the info on this page and fell sorry for the Marathi people of Belgaum. In the 1950's, the movement to make Belgaum a part of Maharashtra was an emotional one with adequate support from the Maharashtra govenrment. However after the stunning defeat at the hands of Mahajan commission, the Maharashtra government is essentially doing to the Marathis what Pakisthan is doing to Kashmiris in that they are being used for their own election / selfish purposes with really no hope of reverting the decision of the Mahajan commission.

I believe the Maharashtra government knows all too well that there has to be give and take on Belgaum. Karnataka is going to stick to the Mahajan commission no matter what, just as India swears by the Shimla agreement. Its the poor Marathis who dont realise they are being used. Thats the reason you see this movement rise up in rhetoric every time Shiv Sena sees a humiliating defeat in Maharashtra.

In an internatioannly and globally rising and aligning India, there is little place for Sub-regionalism. Today there is not one independent candidate in Belgaum. The whole reason for this is the failure of the MEC and their high handed tactics.

Also, if the Kannada people of Sholapur are not fighting to Join Karnataka, its because Kannada people are basically decent non-militant people who have shown India and world our calibre by starting and starring in India's IT revolution. The world no longer talks of Mumbai as the gateway to India, but it talks of Bangalore (Bangaluru) as its international gateway. Karnataka is too important for India and the Indian govt. is aware of this. India cannot and will not allow shallow, narrow minded sub-regional fascists to ignite a problem that could spread through out India and damage India's image as a progressive nation. Nor do I believe Karnataka is weak enough to suffer a defeat like the "Battle of Panipat".

Buy the way, If i apologised earlier, it was not a sign of Kannadiga weakness, but a deep sense of regret for talking about closing doors to outsiders, when this is really not Kannada culture. Dont let this fool you about Kannadiga reslove.

Lets not forget that through out history, when other empires fell, it was the Kannada empires that stood the test of time to protect Indian Nationalism. The Hoysalas were the last to fall (1343 CE.)to the Khilji invasion while the Yadavas of Devagiri who actually had many cowardly agreements with the invaders were the first to fall (1315 CE.). From the ashes of the Hoysala empire rose the last great Hindu empire, the Vijayanagar empire (note that no historian calls the Maratha empire the last great Hindu empire) to keep invaders out for 250 years when our neighbours to the north were already ruled by the invaders during this period. The Kingdom of Mysore were the last to fall to the British in 1799 CE. under Tippu with the Maratha Peshwas and Nizam of Hyderabad working as agents of the British and actually assisting the British in the Third Mysore War. In return for their service provided, these English agents were given bits and pieces of northern Karnataka which later on became a part of Bombay presidency and Hyderabad presidency. we eventually go back what was ours in 1956. During the British rule, more than anyone else, it was the Kannada people who suffered, being split up into four regions, Bombay presidency, Madras Presidency, Hyderabad and Mysore Kingdom. Yet, by 1875, we had replaced Marathi and Urdu as the medium of education in northern Karnataka with our own language. We did this in a very cultured and educated way. Today we have 7 Jnanpith awards (the highest in India for any language), have won the Ranji trophy 6 times (having entered the cricket arena rather late in 1960's), started India's IT revolution. All this goes to show our resolve.

Those who misconstrue our generosity for weakness, those who miscalculate our humility for fear are sure to be disappointed.

Jai Karnataka Mathe,

Dinesh Kannambadi

---

YAWN!!

Dear Dinesh kanammbbadi, YAWN!!!! I very well know how 'uncivilised goons u ppl r.And belive me ALMOST ALL points that u have metioned will sound PALE when compared to Maharashtra.Maharashtra is the greatest state and their ppl and language are greatest if compared with Karnataka or Kannada. Perhaps when Maharashtrians will awake and show u where u stand,u will understand what Maharashtrians are!! So smell coffee (and dosa!)

Hi Dinesh, It is clear that you know nothing about Belgaum and you are trying to divert the topic by explaining how Karnataka and Kannad history is great---which is not a topic here. Your glorification about Karnataka only explains lack of knowledge. It is really difficult to understand what are you trying to do by glorifying Karnataka.

Your claims of Karnataka being close to Maharashtra and Bengalore getting closer to Mumbai are myths. I will just give you few facts and decide yourself. you will find a lot but read this http://www.midcindia.org/mah_overview/survey.php#0

Another unlogical explanation is comparing belgaum with Kashmir. I really don't understand why is it so difficult for you to understand this simple fact. Do you know that people in Hukkeri and Athani do not wanted to be in Belgaum district. Can you compare this with Kashmir also? You should know that state government can change internal borders without much difficulty. Similarly Indian government can form new states or change the border of any state without much problem. No one in the world can change country's border. There is no supreme authority than country's governement. So better stop such illogical arguments. And you should know that central govt has formed many new states recently (for example, Chatishagadh, jharkhand etc). In fact, the Indian states have been formed linguistically. THUS, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE MARATHI PEOPLE TO GET THE GOVT OF THEIR LANGUAGE. We live in an Independent India. Karnataka govt is acting like a British govt. For example, no job for marathi people, forcing to learn Kanadi, and harassing in many other ways. You should know that it is not Maharashtra govt but the people of belgaum wanted to be in Maharashtra. Go and check the political situation. Even after 50 years of harassment from Karnataka govt people still elect Maharashtra Ekikaran Samiti's (MES) candidate. Right now there are two MLA and many ZPs and many Taluka Panchayat's are controlled by MES.

Now, about history... do some unbiased study and you will realize how much importance Maratha empire has in Indian history. Interestingly there is a marathi script at the bottom of Gometeshwar Statue at Shravabbelgol. This is more than 1000 years old and in so much south in Karnataka. Isn't that amazing. Marathi had so much impact on Karnataka in the past.

About Karnatak winning Ranaji 6 times... Again do some research and verify the records of Mumbai. you should know that more than 50 poets and writters have received Gyanpith award in India, why should there be so much fuss about that. Interesting 5 of your Gyanpith awardee donot speak kanad at home. For example, mother tongue of Girish Karnad and Dr. Shivram Karanth is Konkani; DR Bendre is MARATHI; Masti Venkateswara Iyengar is Tamil

My suggestion is don't get emotional and write illogical. I can give answers to your each and every point but I think this is enough for now.

Belgaon will go with Maharashtra for sure

The logic behind it is same.Maharashtrians are in moajority in Belgaon.All villages/areas in disputed region have to be transferred to respective states on the basis of population.If Solapur district has regions where Kannadi are more than their's no problem to give those to Karnataka. Stop crying out Mahajan report.It is completely biased and unjustifies.Only that u gave him more bribe that doesnt mean Belgaon belongs to u.It will go to Maharashtra for sure.We have tolerated enough and we are not gonna give damn abt what Dineshs are saying. (~~)

The great Kannadi warriors read this!

I am being reading ur talk page and seems u have not only abused Marathi and Maharashtrians but also Tamilians and the guy who said Rajkumar was not Kannadi!Thus it signifies how well-behaved and justified u(Kannadis) r as u mentioned to us in one of our discussions! Anyways what I want to tell u is dont cry foul abt Kannada being the classical and older language than Marathi.It may be(I dont care in fact!);but that does not make Marathi less important or less lovable!No matter how much u puke,u cant really question Marathi's greatness.U might not know but Marathi is 4th most spoken language in India (after Hindi,Bangla,Telugu) and 16th in world(native speakers),ahead of Tamil and Kannada!Its very laughable statement of urs that Marathi was evolved from kannada!!!Sanskrit is the only language with Marathi owes from as it is INDO-ARYAN language and not a Dravidian language.Stop swearing abt our language like u did in Marathi and Belgaon page.Konkani is essentialy a dialect of Marathi and even if all Konkanis and u dont agreee to it,the truth and history wont change!

U compared Belgaon to Kashmir.It surely resembles that issue.But I totally believe in motto-Satyameva Jayate.It is destined for India to have Kashmir and its destined that Belgaon along with other Marathi speaking villages of K'taka will finally belong to Maharashtra.In fact u shud worry abt rest of North kanara where Konkanis and Kodavis might want to seperate their land from Karnataka!congrats as Bangalore is advancing over Mumbai!I really hope that Bangalore surpasses Mumbai as then only u will know how decent and thoughful were Maharashtrians to accomodate outsiders so long.And abt Jnanapeeths,look Marathi can win it but we dont bother to lobby for that.We know we are great and we dont look for 'recognisation' from others.we dont even 'market' abt how we and our language is great!We just dont need certificates from others!!!

Jai Maharashtra! (mahawiki 15:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC))

Who or what is "Kannadi"?? Sarvagnya 09:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Kannadi" is the main language spoken in Karnataka and also referred to people speaking that language. You can consider it as a synonym for "Kannadig" by adding "g". It is not derogatoray, and is widely used in central in northern India.--Sandipani 15:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Who or what is "Belgavi"?? (mahawiki 11:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC))

Neutral approach needed

The notorious and provocative language against Maharashtra govt will not be tolerated.

Deliberately (and repetative) naming Mahajan commission and state recognisation act is irrelavent and signifies pro-kannadi nature of this article.(mahawiki 08:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC))

Mahawiki, what do you mean by NPOV? Do you want me to write that

• Belgaum is a part of MH?
• The Mahajan commission ACCEPTED MH's demand for Belgaum city?
• Maharashtra did NOT go back on its word to honour the Mahajan commission's report?
• Belgaum is NOT a legal and constitutional part of Karnataka?
• That the Belgaum Corporation was superseded by the Govt of Karnataka illegaly?
• Karnataka govt butchered Marathis in Belgaum?
• That Mahajan commission did not recommend exchange of villages between Kar and MH?
• Karnataka govt bribed Justice Meherchand Mahajan?

Sorry, but if you want all the above trash to make it into WP, you will need to cite references. As of now you havent cited a single reference to back any of your claims. Your jingoism is childish, laughable and only matched by that of fundamentalist outfits across the globe. Wikipedia is not the place for your obsessive compulsive trolling. Take it someplace else. Sarvagnya 18:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sarvagnya, A judgement by one person, that is, Mahajan cannot be the end of world for 30 lakh Marathi people in the area. Even Indira Gandhi did not agree totaly with Mahajan report and suggested to split the Belgaum city into Maharashtra and Karnataka. It your comments that are laughable. --Sandipani 15:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Answers

Belgaum is a part of MH? No.But logically it should be.And so should be Kannada speaking villages in Maharashtra,if they really exist.

The Mahajan commission ACCEPTED MH's demand for Belgaum city? A person cannot decide fate for some lakhs of Marathis who are detained in k'taka unnecessarily.Stop cryuing abt it,would u handle Dharwad if that Mahajan had asked to?

Maharashtra did NOT go back on its word to honour the Mahajan commission's report? It had to!How could a Marathi speaking majority town handed over to K'taka.On which grounds??

Belgaum is NOT a legal and constitutional part of Karnataka? It is.But residents of Belgaum wants to join Maharashtra.And u really cant hide the truth.No Kannada MLA has been ever elected from those disputed region.

That the Belgaum Corporation was superseded by the Govt of Karnataka illegaly? Perhaps.But they did it in a peaceful and constitutional way.Not like Vedike jerks who manhandled mayor near Vidhan soudha.Its not only shameful for them but also for Karnataka.

Karnataka govt butchered Marathis in Belgaum? Yes.Seriously.On which ground they want Belgaum in Karnataka?Mind u im talking about Belgaum city and not Belgaum district.Have u ever thought why u r so offensive and bad to neighbours?Killing ppl on Kaveri issue is one more instance of that.Why r u attacking?One must not forget that Maha's silence and humility doesnt mean that we cant react that harshly.

That Mahajan commission did not recommend exchange of villages between Kar and MH? Again.Move forward of that notoriois report,It was a jackpot for u,but that does not mean u can take disadvantage of that.Give me EXPLAINATION abt how K'taka can have Belgaum when Marathis have clear majority there?Wht abt Nippani,Bidar?My heart cries and blood boils with this injustice.

Karnataka govt bribed Justice Meherchand Mahajan? Most likely.HOW CAN MARATHI DOMINATED BELGAUM BE A PART OF K'TAKA??Would u have given Hubli/Dharwad to Maharashtra?If Mahajan had said Bangalore to be a part of TN as their population is significant,would u ppl had parted with it?

Answer me! mahawiki 19:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Much as I hate engaging or humoring trolls, you should realise that you are making serious claims like

• Karnatka bribed Mahajan
• Ktaka butchered Marathis
• Marathis outnumber Kannadigas in Belgaum - According to which census report, may I know? or did you carry out your own personal census?
• "Maha's silence and humility"! huh. - While Ktaka has always wished for either maintaining status quo or the implementation of the report, it is MH that has kept the issue boiling.
• Kaveri - who killed who on kaveri and more importantly, how is that relevant to this article?

Do you have *ANY* references you can cite to support any of your claims? If you have, do so and stop vandalising. Sarvagnya 19:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Dont tell me!!!

What are ur citations?One sided crap-Deccan Herald,some kanndi media!Do they have authencity. Maharashtrians outnumber Kannadis EVEN NOW in Belgaon.Obviously dont we know the riots after Rajkumars death?(U dont even accept that his mother tongue is Telugu!)Dont we know the fuss about Tamil poets statue?The voilence after cauvery water distribution?This is relavent bcoz u fight with each neighbour.I can provide u dozens of citations,i just need to surf net for a while.And what made u think that Mahajan report is last word on this matter?Gimme a break. And the fact that karnataka tortures Marathis is being proved at my citation.Go and see it.I promise u to flood with citations,after this problem is resolved, I never thought we shall be subject to so much of torture in our own country.

mahawiki 19:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Please stop - This discussion is pointless. It is not for wikipedia to decide where Belgaum should lie not to speculate what happened in the murky waters of Indian politics. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 19:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok,i think the problem is being solved.I dont have any personal grudges with any of the editors here.I hope Sarvagnya shall also respect the resolution. mahawiki 19:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarvagnya's citations are rediculous

Sarvagnya is out of mind,I suppose.The Deccan Herald belongs to a Kannada newshouse which have no presence outside Karnataka.I request the authorities to please review all the links/citations mentioned by this guy and find out yourself how shamelessly this newspaper gives biased statement which cant be used as citations here atleast those 'which are defamatory to Maharashtra and judgemental'.Sarvagnya has also included some Kannada media news stories which needless to say are hillarious and have zero credibilty.I dont have problems with Newswindpress,Hindu but i request editors to review the content of citations and whats being included in article.I donno why this guy is allergic to TOI and Indian express.

If at all his citations and defamatory language against Maharashtra is allowed,I shall be present with citations from Maharashtra Times,Pudhari,Belgaon Tarun Bharat,Sakal and Loksatta

mahawiki 04:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Why are you hell bent on making a fool of yourself? For starters, someone who thinks Deccan Herald belongs to Vijaya Karnataka group very obviously knows nothing about Deccan Herald. And number two, the Deccan Herald citations were by User:Aksi and not by me. The citation I added is from newindpress. In your best interests, revert your vandalism now. Sarvagnya 05:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Plz have a look towards admin's version.It didnt carry the sentence which u r talking about.Plz revert the change made.mahawiki 05:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Insult to Maharashtra and Belgaon struggle will not be tolerated

word 'UNCONFIRMED' signifies pro-Karanataka nature.I have reoved just that word rest all is left untouched. I have had enough of this.If Kanndi people are purposely insulting Maharashtra and Sanyukta Maharashtra movement,I promise u I shall response in similar manner. mahawiki 07:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• The word 'unconfirmed' was added by user:AreJay !! Not by me! I only added information about "four member committee" with proper citations and also added a few more external links. If you are new to wikipedia take your time to go through the histories with a calm mind and also read up on how things work on wikipedia. Wp is not the place for your jingoism. Sarvagnya 08:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
• the word 'unconfirmed' was used because maharashtra's assertion that there were more marathis than kannadigas in belgaum is not supported by any official census reports. If you find any census reports or any WP:Notable and WP:Verifiable source that establishes that marathis outnumbered kannadigas in 1967, please cite it. If you cant, take your troll someplace else. Infact the word "unconfirmed" should be replaced with "false". Sarvagnya 08:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
• And your repeated use of the word "Kannadi" is ceasing to be funny anymore. Just so you dont plead ignorance, people who speak Kannada are called Kannadigas just like people who speak Marathi are called Marathas or Marathis and not Mara-chee or Mara-Thoo. Sarvagnya 08:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

"Kannadi" is the term used for the main language spoken in Karnataka. It is also referred to the people who speak that language. It is a popular term used in central and northern India. It is not a derogatory term. In fact the term "Kaddadi" plus "g", as suggested by you, is not known to many people. The terms you invented for Marathi have no meaning and no body will take them seriously. --Sandipani 19:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• I am not editing this for a few hours. Do whatever edits you want to make, but make sure you maintain consistency between the Belgaum and Belgaum_district pages as far as the Border problem section is concerned. You yourself seem to have different versions of the Border problem for the two pages. Fix it. Sarvagnya 08:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
• Also your branding Deccan Herald untrustworthy, 'comic relief' etc., is not going to make any difference to Deccan Herald's WP:Notability or WP:Verifiability. Deccan Herald is too reputed a newspaper for you to wish it away. So stop making a spectacle of yourself on that count too. Sarvagnya 08:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Deccan Helard is known for pro-kannada stand on all issues. This is the reason it is only read in the limited part of Karnataka part only. --Sandipani 19:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

sandipani

Plz edit that para,to make it short.im sorry to revert it mistakenly as I thot u have copied it wholy from Deccan Herald. mahawiki 16:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The Marathi name and transliteration

While the English and Kannada transliterations can be explained, can anyone explain to me how a Marathi transliteration can find its place in this article? This in English wikipedia so English is justified. Belgaum is in Karnataka and Kannada is Karnataka's official language. So I see a place for the Kannada transliteration too. Someone give me a valid explanation for the Marathi transliteration or I will remove it. Sarvagnya 18:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

"Belgaon" the Marathi name is used by both Marathi and Kannada people of Belgaum. Word "gaon" means village in Marathi. Similar names are found in the sarounding of Belgaum (e.g. Vadgaon, Uchagaon, khangaon, etc). Not even 1% of Kannadda people call it "Belgavi". May be people from Mysore call it "Belgavi" or whatever. Many people in Belgaum won't understand what is "Belgavi". Belgaum is in India; and Karnataka is not a sovereign country. Even Urdu is used as an official language in a few district in Uttar Pradesh. Marathi is the main language spoken in around Belgaum city. "Belgaon", as is ::::pronounced in Marathi is the name used by local people irrespective of their mother-tongue. Marathi is one of the recognized language in India. Belgaum has more close ties to Maharashtra than Karnataka in all respect inculding trade and business. Belgaum Municipal corporation use both Marathi and Kannada as the official languages. Belgaum taluka panchayat use Marathi as the main language except while dealing with Karnataka govt. Election commision use both Marathi and Kannada in all elections. You should be aware that Wikipedia is nobody's property; others can remove your edits too. In fact, I don't see why "Belgavi" should be there. Translation in both Marathi and Kannada is the best possible thing that can be achieved. Hope you will understand it and act responsibly.--Sandipani 18:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• I only need an explanation for having belgaon and its marathi transliteration on English Wikipedia. I dont want your stories and original research. India has more than two dozen states and each state shares its borders with close to half a dozen other states. That doesnt mean half a dozen transliterations in that many languages ought to find their place in articles dealing with border districts and border cities.
• And as for "Belagavi" it is the official name the Government of Karnataka uses in all its correspondences. That is what is painted on all government buildings too. The entire Kannada news media including Government owned Doordarshan uses "Belagavi"(you'd to well to watch AND listen to the weather report in any Kannada news channel) Sarvagnya 19:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly this is an English Encyclopedia not a Kannada newspaper. Additionally the script Wikipedia is ROMAN not Kannadda. You can write whatever you want in Kannad verson of the wikipedia. The translations or pronouncations are given which are used by the majority of the local people. You said, "I don't want your stories ....." You should remember that I am not answering you. You are not the boss, who controls wikipedia, so better mind your language. The marathi translation has nothing to do with the Maharashtra sharing its border with Karnataka. "Belgaon", this is how it has been pronounced for generations and will be pronounced forever in the future. In fact, I don't see any point in calling it "Belgavi", just because some Kannada newspaper call it so.--Sandipani 19:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

(In response to a Q you raised on my talk page instead of raising it on this page) - :Yes! I want a reference that proves that Marathi is an official language in BCC. I am tired of saying this, but on Wikipedia every bit of information(especially info which is contested by other editors) has to be referenced. There is no place for original research on WP. Sarvagnya 23:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Belgaum is Apabhransha of Belgaon

Belgaum,the English name ,is derived from Marathi 'Belgaon'.I hope u wont ask for a source here unless of course u pronounce Belgaum as Belgium or 'Belgom'.The pronounciation of word Belgaum is beLgav just like Vadgaon,Narayangaon etc.. mahawiki 05:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I would recommend Belgaon to be written in both languages.Seriously,I never knew what is Belgavi!!!Perhaps u have modified Marathi version of Belgaon to Kannad Belgavi. It is true that Belgaon is presently in K'taka,but since its a disputed issue and having clear Marathi makority,addition of Belgaon in Marathi should be allowed. mahawiki 05:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

बेळगांव in Marathi

http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html

The link proves nothing except the fanatcism, confrontationist approach of the Marathis and the scant regard MES has for the law.

Just because MES does something does not mean that it is within the law. MES has only been known for its rowdy tactics and for sensationalising the issue for its own political ends at the expense of the citizens of Belagavi(not Belgavi).

MES' use of Marathi on nameboards etc., much like its flying the 'Bhagawaddhwaja' atop the corporation, was in blatant contravention of the law(the KMC Act, the Flag Act etc.,).

They were simply one of the many such indiscretions that the GoK was overlooking in its bid to not precipitate the situation or veer its focus away from more important things. In other words, you dont dignify barking dogs by paying attention to them. And not surprisingly, the trilingual boards were thrown out along with the MES.

Forget this link, look at BCC's own website. Do you see Marathi anywhere? If Marathi was an official language, how come only Kannada and English forms are available?

Just because there is a sizeable Marathi population in Belagavi is no reason to have Marathi transliterations here. Border areas in most states have multi lingual mixes. Sholapur and other parts of MH have sizeable Kannada population. Bombay has an overwhelming Gujarati population. Madras, especially at the time of independence and even now has a very sizeable Telugu population. Parts of TamilNadu bordering Kerala have sizeable Malayali populations. Kasargod has majority Kannadigas. Tamil Nadu districts bordering Karnataka near Chamarajanagar are overwhelmingly Kannada. Delhi has sizeable Punjabi population. Haryana-Punjab border is a bilingual mix... we could go on and on an on about this.

When the states were reorganized, several states got their borders redrawn. Yet, it is only Maharashtra and MES rowdies who are throwing such a fit about this. As if, merging Belagavi with MH will solve its problems. Try holding on to Vidharbha first and do something for the farmers there who are committing suicide in the hundreds.

Belagavi all said and done is the most developed city in N.Karnataka. Compare that with the plight of MH's border cities. What you have to realise is that in India, except for the major cities, the rest of the country is a heap of shit irrespective of which state it is. 3/4th of our villagers do not even have electrified homes(the official figures put it at 56% of rural households), thanks to rowdies like MES playing petty politics.

As for all the Sharad Pawars and Thackreys they didnt even whisper a word about Belagavi when they were in power. The moment they lose power, they rake up the issue. Cant you see that they are taking you for a ride? First of all ask your old man in Bombay to keep his family and party together and then let him talk about Belagavi or belgaum or belgaon or balegaon or whatever.

And as for yourself, I only have this to say. Forget about Belagavi merging with MH. Its not going to happen. Do you even understand the gravity of the Government's affidavit in the Supreme Court? That one affidavit alone is enough for the case to keep running for the next 50 years, not to mention anything about the Mahajan report or the report of the 4 member committee. And that affidavit is in spite of Shivaraj Patil leaving no stone unturned to help MH.

MES is just selling you empty dreams to keep itself in power. As for your question of why MES keeps winning, it is simply because Kannadigas arent fanatics and dont gang up and vote for their language and because of that their votes get split. On the other hand, Marathis unmindful of the real issues like development, harmony etc., blindly vote for MES. The sooner you realise this, the better it is for both Marathi and Kannadiga citizens of Belagavi.

Once again, look at these links from the BCC's own website and tell me if you find any Marathi anywhere.

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/forms/UDD-HE-E-F-JUL05-110.pdf

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/forms/UDD-HE-E-I-JUL05-110.pdf

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/forms/UDD-HE-E-F-JUL05-111.pdf

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/forms/UDD-HE-E-I-JUL05-110.pdf

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/forms/PGR-KannadaForm-NN-Belgaum.pdf

http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/grievance-redressal.html

Sarvagnya 18:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever swearings u have wrote about MES and Maharashtrians,i refuse to take those and instead pass it to u.Secondly whatever 'pravachan' u have given I am not responding to it as I have been adviced to refrain from it.The link which I given clearly mentions that Belgaon Mahanagarpalika uses 'Marathi' as well despite of imposition of Kannada by GoK.And thirdly we clearly know who is fanatic and 'uncivilised' by the Vijay More incident.

As of for the merger of Belgaon,ironically K'taka state has only 60-65% population who's mother-tongue is Kannada.Rest being Marathi,Tulu,Konkani,Kodavi,Badaga,Telugu and Tamil.So by opposing Belgaum u r choosing to remain minority in ur won state.If u want I will be more than happy to provide u the citation.

Thanks mahawiki 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Mahawiki. The link that you provided does not indicate that the marathi name is also used. There is no precedent yet for such cases. The project says that the name should be scripted in the local language. But the dispute here is about the language to use. So I would suggest that if Belgaum name is indeed derived from the marathi root, then add a very short section before history titled "origin of name". See this. Provide citations for whatever you add. Nothing which you beleive to be true or know to be true. I am sure no one would object to that. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 12:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Pl see the article and picture of Belgaon Mahanagar Palika.Belgaon Mahanagarpalika is being written in Marathi too right on the mahapalika bldg.I think this will suffice to clear ur doubts.

Pudhari.com photo (Located at http://www.pudhari.com/Static/Features/Belgaon_border_issue/f_belgaon154.htm)

I shall wait for few hours and then add Marathi name.Ur inputs are welcome.

mahawiki 15:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To add,Hubli Dharwad Municipal corporation doesnt have any Kannada mentions on their website.(Especially about official language etc) and all the forms are in English (and not Kannada).Does that prove Hubli Dharwad is not in Karnataka?

http://www.hdmc.gov.in/

http://www.hdmc.gov.in/forms/app_birth.pdf

http://www.hdmc.gov.in/forms/cc_green.pdf

http://www.hdmc.gov.in/forms/propertytax_register.pdf

mahawiki 15:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Mahanagara palika building signboard

Looks like the Hindi or marathi in the middle also says Belagavi and the issue is not about Hubli/Dharwad. also if you check the census for Maharashtra (2001), only 64% call Marathi their native language (62 million out of 96 million total population). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.42.208.182 (talk • contribs)

Signboard is in Marathi for sure as there's no 'ळ' in Hindi language.Plz recheck ur facts as middle one says BeLgaon (बेळगांव) and not what what u claim.Hubli/Dharwad link has to be considered for the facts claimed by a user(that Belgaon Mahanagarpalika has no Marathi mentions/forms etc.).Plz give the link that confirms ur claims about Marathi speakers.

mahawiki 15:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply: look at the wiki page for Maharashtra itself in demographics section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.42.208.182 (talk • contribs)

Unfortunately can't find any such mentions.But if true its more because of cosmopolitan nature of Mumbai.Maharashtra has no regions like Uttara Kannada where Kannadis are minority.Also with Bangalore's 'growth' the 65% of native Kannada speakers are bound to drop.Ur comments about Belgaon article to which we were discussing about adding Marathi name .

mahawiki 16:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, keep out discussion about HDMC, demographics of Karnataka, demographics of Maharashtra etc.,.
• Coming to the Pudhari.com photo, the photo is not clear, in the sense that each and every alphabet is not legible properly. The first line is clearly in Kannada script, the second line is in Devanagari and the third line is in Roman script. Of that, there is no doubt.
  • Now you are claiming that the line in Devanagari is actually in Marathi language because Hindi doesnt have 'ळ' - which again, is for you to prove.
  • Also, whether the Hindi language has 'ळ' or not is besides the point. The question here is, whether the Devanagari we see here is Marathi or Hindi. There are any number of haLLis and paLLis all over south india in whose railway stations you will see the Hindi version of the name painted in Devanagari script along with the local script and English(Roman script). I distinctly remember seeing the use of 'ळ' in the Hindi script. In any case, it is for you to prove that the Devanagari we see is Marathi and not Hindi. Also, if it is indeed Marathi, it is clearly in violation of the law. Lets come to that later. For now, just prove to me that the Devanagari we see is Marathi and not Hindi. Till then, the Marathi transliteration will be removed. Sarvagnya 05:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Belgaum in Marathi

• By HDMC's example,its clear that even if mentions of Marathi are not on Belgaon Mahanagarpalika's site,it doesnt mean or prove that Marathi is not used in municipal corporation.

• If u are not able to see this the pic clearly go to an eye-specialist.

• Marathi & Hindi use Devnagari script.Although 'ळ' is a constituent of Nagari script it is not used in Hindi script.The examples u mentioned are perhaps the exceptions, as Dravidian languages use 'ळ' swar extensively.
• See- http://www.haryana-online.com/devnagri.htm
• And of course see- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari

In Hindi,Municipal corporation is termed as 'Nagar Nigam' (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahabad ) and not as Mahanagarpalika.Mahanagarpalika is a Marathi word.

I am amazed at what you can make up on the fly! Just take a look at these [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] and many more such sites. If these dont suffice, just try googling for "'the state of your choice' + Nagarpalika". You will be surprised that almost all states in India from Gujarat to MP to UP to uttaranchal to HP are using Marathi!! Sarvagnya 02:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

So the Nagari script u see on the board is Marathi.Morever the link which I cited before(of Vijay More) clearly mentions that all three languages are used in Belgaon Mahanagarpalika.

• You are not entitled to comment on display of Marathi name on Belgaon Mahanagarpalika is violation of law or not.Also Wikipedia is not a place for original research.In fact the debate we are having here is immaterial as Kannada (and Kannadi corporators) are non-existent in Belgaon city and Belgaon Mahanagarpalika otherwise it would have been not possible to pass a resolution(seeking merger with Maharashtra) unanimously.

• Plz dont remove Marathi transliteration unless u prove anything against my claims.Thanks.

mahawiki 06:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The HDMC is very clearly a monolingual site designed exclusively in English. But the BCC site is clearly multilingual and as you can see Marathi has no place in that site. Sarvagnya 02:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

My 2 paisa

I have come to the conclusion that the name is indeed in Marathi. I do not think it is Hindi. Anyone who removes it from the article should prove that it is not. This conclusion has also been confirmed by Nichalp who lives in Bombay. And taking this to be Marathi, I think this is enough proof that Marathi is indeed a language local to the region. It may not be the official language, but is still used along with Kannada and English. Please discuss below if you do not agree with my judgement.- Aksi_great (talk - review me) 11:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Anybody who says the board is in Marathi or that hindi does not use 'La', be it mahawiki or aksi or nichalp or whoever, is merely asserting their own opinion. Marathi is indeed one of the langauges spoken in Belgaum, of that there is no doubt and nobody is contesting that. The question is whether having the Marathi transliteration here is warranted. It is NOT. If that were to be the case, we'd have to have Gujarati transliterations in Mumbai, Kannada on Sholapur and Kasargod pages, Kannada on Hosur page, and so on and so forth. There would be no end to it. There are no precedents in this case and infact, talking of Kannada on Sholapur page(which I noticed just yesterday), I'd like to draw Aksi's attention to Mahawiki's vandalism and jingoism on that page too. The same Mahawiki who's fighting for having the Marathi transliteration here is continuously reverting/deleting edits on that page. So much so, he's even deleting all instances of even the word 'Kannada' that appear on that page. Sarvagnya 01:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And again, as for the assertion that La is not used in hindi, I can only say that it is utter nonsense. I have myself come across the use of 'La' in hindi textbooks. That fact notwithstanding, I am sure everyone here would have come across railway stations in india with the haLLis and paLLis painted in hindi. Now dont tell me that all those boards are in Marathi! Sarvagnya 01:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

When Belgaon Mahanagarpalika displays a Marathi board,the display of Marathi transliteration here is warranted.

• Dont keep harping on the same thing. All that we know is it is in Nagari. That it is Marathi is your POV Sarvagnya 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I excuse ur ignorance.That board is in Marathi ,Plz see the links given. mahawiki 11:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As this confirms that its a language used by Corporation authorities and hence official.Mumbai,Solapur have MAHARASHTRIANS in MAJORITY.Morever they are not DISPUTED as Belgaon and adjoining areas.

• Sholapur is as disputed or as 'not disuputed' as Belagavi. Infact, Sholapur can be deemed more disputed than Belagavi because it is still with MH in spite of the Mahajan commission recommending its transfer to K'taka unlike Belagavi which neither the States Reorganisation committe nor the 4 member committe nor the Mahajan Commission recommended transfering to MH. Just because Kannadigas are peaceful and dont adopt rowdy tactics doesnt mean that it rightfully belongs to MH. Sarvagnya 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

We all know how decent and peaceful Kannadis are with ur lingo itself!!

To add,Maharashtra govt. doesnt ill-treat the linguistic minorities there.

• Ha ha. Keep your nonsense to yourself. You remind me of ignorant terrorist trainees in Pakistani camps who are fed all the propoganda and taught and trained to believe that the Indian govt butchers Kashmiris as a matter of routine. Sarvagnya 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think u need medical help!mahawiki 11:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If u see,Akkalkot,however,we have added about Kannada speakers in border region.I was assertive about Solapur page as few Kannadi fanatics were marketing and endorsing as if Sonnalige(!) should become a part of Karnataka.Notice the frequent mentions of Kannada,Kannadigas on those pages.If you prove Solapur Mahanagarpalika uses Kannada as official language,I would be happy to add it on that page.

• ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD AND WARNED ENOUGH BEFORE NOT TO USE UNCOUTH SLANGS THAT ONLY MARATHIS LIKE YOU SEEM TO BE CAPABLE OF! I AM WARNING YOU - LET THIS BE THE LAST TIME YOU USE THE WORD 'KANNADI'(SIC) Sarvagnya 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Kannadi is of course no offensive word.Its just like u use Marathis instead of Maharashtrians sometimes.Ur comment about Maharashtrians is trashed!mahawiki 11:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

As of about Hindi instance is concerned,I suggest u to see those links again.Ask Railway authorities about it.What we are intrested here is whether Belgaon Mahanagarpalika's board has Marathi as official language or not.Dont revert the article again unless u prove 'that' board doesnt have Marathi transliteration.Thanks.

mahawiki 03:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Woah!! Why is it for me to prove that it is NOT marathi?? The onus is upon you to establish that it is indeed marathi!! Sarvagnya 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Are u for real?I have established the fact that the board is in Marathi!See the sources I gave u!mahawiki

Mumbai Mahanagarpalika,Solapur Mahanagarpalika doesnt use Kannada or any other language(except state's official language,Marathi)as official. mahawiki 03:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

To the guy that said - "Sholapur is as disputed or as 'not disuputed' ...blah..blah.."

WTH is Sholapur?

There's a town in South Maharashtra. It's called Solapur.

Who's the simpleton now, eh?

And why are you shouting? Running out of things to say coherently?

asnatu 09:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Assumption

"Mumbai,Solapur have MAHARASHTRIANS in MAJORITY.Morever they are not DISPUTED as Belgaon and adjoining areas".
This is again a profound assumption. What is the population of Marathis in Bombay?. Belagavi is not disputed as far as we Kannadaigas are concerned. We stick by Mahajan commission. remember the 245 villages in Sholapur district? as per Mahajan commission. Looks like this guy likes to wiggle around a lot. Can you prove from verifiable sources that Marathi's are in Majority in Belagavi district/Belagavi city and that these Marathi's are NOT recent immigrants after 1956.

There is no struggle or movement going on in Solapur as in Belgaon because there's only handful of Kannadis in those areas.Imposition of Marathi is not done in those regions.Population of Maharashtrians in Mumbai is only slightly less than Kannadis in Bangalore.Yes,I do know Mahajan commission had some mentions about it,but the fact is there is NO unrest in Solapur.
Maharashtrians are in majority in Belgaon city and adjoining regions but not in whole Belgaon district.It is u Kannadis who talk about immigration of Kannadis in Belgaon,few Kannad chauvinists had actually urged K'taka govt to start indutries in Belgaon to 'increase' population of Kannadis there.
Again point here to be considered is Marathi is one of languages used in Belgaon Mahanagarpalika. mahawiki 05:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Sarvagnya

It is clear by his attitude and posts that Sarvagnya is frustrated!He asked me to edit the articles by citations.I have provided enough citations to prove that Marathi is used in Belgaon Mahanagarpalika.Morever his swearings against Maharashtra and Marathi cannot be ignored.He is adviced to not to edit the article without proper citations.""Belgaon in Marathi will continue to be displayed". Kannadi is the proper word of the speakers of Kannada.Infact if u see the wiki tags on the page of Kannada,the Marathi tag clearly depicts that Kannada is known as Kanadi in Western/Central India,which of course is no offense.Kannadi means the residents of Karnataka,just like residents of Gujarat are Gujaratis or residents of Bengal are known as Bengalis. mahawiki 11:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Also,the point to note is,he terms Maharashtrians as Marathis.I dont know why is he so disturbed with the 'term' Kannadi?If he stops saying Maharashtrians as Marathis I shall avoid the word Kannadi and instead use Kannada speakers.i did not mean offense,i urge the admins to ask him to stop swearing Maharashtrians.mahawiki 11:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sarvangya has some issue with any sort of Devanagari script written on pages.Bakaman _Bakatalk 16:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What is your point? Is it concerned with this article/talk page? Would you care to elaborate? Sarvagnya 20:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply by aksi

I did not find a place to reply above. So I am replying here. I was not aware about disputes in other places and that does not concern the current issue. As for this article, I still feel that the board is in Marathi. So does Nichalp, and so does Samir. I have never seen Hindi using the 'la' written in that form. You keep on talking about the 'la' written on the stations (haLLis and paLLis). I have no clue what you are talking about. Please keep the discussion on this talk page related to the Belgaum article. Discussions on whether "Maharashtra govt. doesnt ill-treat the linguistic minorities there." or "ignorant terrorist trainees in Pakistani camps" are not related to the article. Please carry on this nonsense outside of wikipedia. But such things are not tolerated here. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 14:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I've answered this before more than once. Doesnt seem like you read the discussions on this page properly. Anyway, here I go again. Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Whether the Hindi language has the alphabet 'La' or not is besides the point. The point is the Hindi script certainly has the alphabet and it is commonly used when the hindi script is used to represent the 'La' sound occuring in other languages. Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• For e.g, let us forget the haLLis and paLLis(which curiously you needed so much time to come back and tell me that you dont understand) - let us take the example of 'belgaon' itself. Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Now let us forget that board for a moment. Tell me how would you write 'beLgaon' in hindi?? certainly as बेळगांव. not बेलगांव. that is essence is my point and there are numerous examples of that, if you see how the names of numerous haLLis and paLLis in south india is written on their railway station boards. Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Since you seem to be at a loss for understanding what what haLLis and paLLis are, let me explain. In south india, names of numerous towns and villages ends with the haLLi or paLLi suffix. for e.g., nayanDhaLLi, malavaLLi etc.,. not only that, the ळ sound occurs in the names of countless towns and villages across s.india. and all these towns and villages have railway stations where their names are painted in hindi along with english and the local script. and in all these names 'ळ' is used as in नायंडहळ्ळि, मलवळ्ळि etc. anybody who has travelled in trains in south india would surely have observed this. Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• so that being the case it is not proper to conclude that something written in the nagari script is marati simply because the alphabet 'ळ' occurs in it. anybody concluding so, is merely asserting their own belief(that if 'ळ' is present, it cannot be hindi) and is merely POV pushing. nothing else.Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• and as for talking about MH's treatment of minorities, pakistani terrorists etc., please read the comments again. My comments have only been in response to the non stop virulent language and false assertions by mahawiki right from day one. and unfortunately neither you nor sundar have done little to rein him in yet. just look have the irrelevant and nonsense templates he uses to warn me on my talk page to get an idea. Sarvagnya 18:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you ask me, I would write Belgaon in Hindi as बेलगांव. And since I do not seem to have travelled enough in South Indian trains, I reamin unconvinced that the stations spell the names using 'ळ'. And thirdly, you seem to be under the false impression that the use of "non stop virulent language and false assertions" by others entitles you to do the same. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 18:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Page protected

I have protected the Belgaum page from further edits. Please sort the dispute out amicably on this page. Please note, I have not favoured any version. I locked the page as per the instant I saw it. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh!!

I have cited my sources and gave enough evidences to prove that the board at Belgaon Mahanagarpalika,carries Marathi transliteration and Marathi is used as a offical language(in Belgaon Mahanarpalika).Despite of repeated requests,a user is reverting without any reason.I hope he shall co-operate thus ending vandalism here. mahawiki 17:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I am tired of this particular user who unnecessarily bad-mouths me every now and then.If my warnings to him are 'rrelevant and nonsense' arent his warnings the same,for the fact that Kannada speakers are known as Kannadis/Kanadis in Western and Central India?

i am not expert in Wiki's policies and hence Aksi and Sunder had suggested me to 'stop personal attacks','stop editing without citations' etc. which i have religiously followed.All ppl concerned can check my posts/msgs after Sunder and Aksi intervened.I have been extremely polite and resorted from uncivil behaviour but this particular user provokes and talks rubbish about Maharashtra and Marathi.

Those who have still not understood and agreed that the board at Belgaon mahanagarpalika is in Marathi should read this-

• 1)Though Marathi and Hindi use the same (Devnagari)script,there's no 'ळ' in Hindi varnamala.See Devnagari
• 2)Mahanagarpalika is a MARATHI WORD.In Hindi,Municipal corporation is known as Nagar Nigam.
• 3)Hindi users are likely to term Belgaon as बेलगाव rather than बेळगांव.See the pronounciation of it on this article itself.Other examples to consider are (Hindi name-Marathi name)वडाला-वडाळा,खंडाला-खंडाळा लोनावला-लोणावळा वर्ली-वरळी तलेगाव-तळेगांव .So if at all that board was in Hindi it would have been like नगर निगम,बेलगाव.
• 4)The link http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html clearly mentions that Marathi is also used alongwith other languages.
• 5)The board is at Belgaon Mahanagarpalika and not any railway station.Stop nagging about haLLis and paLLis.If at all 'ळ' is used in Hindi there,its against rules of Hindi.Ask respective authoritivies to use 'ल' instead,but for god's sake spare us!

mahawiki 18:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you are mistaken in point 5. If indeed ळ is used everywhere, then it changes things because then we have to consider the fact that Sarvagnya is right about it. And then we must move on to the other parts of the sentence. I have not ruled out that option yet. But the way things are going on just now, it is immaterial if it is Hindi or Marathi because even if it is Marathi, there is not consensus that it should be included in the article. So please try working towards consensus on that front. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 18:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Aksi,

The wikipedia's page about Devnagari clearly says there's no 'ळ' in Hindi script.I have been repeatedly saying that Mahanagarpalika is an Marathi word.I am amazed at how things work here by the behaviour of some editors,it is just so obvious!WHY arent u ignoring the article-link which clearly says that Marathi alongwith English and Kannada is used in Belgaon Mahanagarpalika!

Using of Marathi transliteration here is justified as Belgaon Mahanagarpalika's acceptance as Marathi clearly proves that Marathi is used in city and city's municipal corporation as 'official language'.TIf at all Marathi transliteration is not included,there's no need for Kannada transliteration too.

I think we are entertaining this troll unnecessarily.He is wasting everyone's time over haLLi and paLLi for which HE HAS NOT PROVIDED ANY CITATIONS.Now how could u accept this?Its original research!!I request,as u had reminded me about Wiki's policies and rules,do the same with this troll.If I were in ur place,I would have banned him!

mahawiki 19:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• For starters, stop citing other wikipedia pages. I believe wikipedia has a rule that you cant use other wikipedia pages for citations/proof. It is absurd. if the devanagari page on wiki is wrong, then you are carrying over that mistake to another page.
• As for proof that the alphabet ळ is very much part of hindi script, see this. That is the hindi page of the Election Commission of India. On that page, do a control+f for the string 'पळ्ळि' or even just 'ळ'. You will be surprised.
• As for khandala-khandaLa etc., go ask those who write खंडाला to correct themselves and write it as खंडाळा. Sarvagnya 19:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Also your assertion that Nagarpalika is a Marati word is blatantly false. I have even given links earlier on this talk page where you can see the use of the word in various states where the language spoken is not Marati. Once again, Nagarpalika is a very common word in India in almost all languages and saying that it is used exclusively in Marati is blatantly false. Sarvagnya 19:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• Infact, even the Bangalore body is called Bengalooru Mahanagarapalike. Sarvagnya 19:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• Devnagari script is used for Hindi or Marathi.So the Nagari script displayed on Belgaon Mahanagarpalika board is indeed,Hindi or Marathi.In Hindi Municipal corporation is termed as NAGAR NIGAM. See this: www.bhopalmunicipal.com
• 'Nagarpalika' may be used frequently but to enlighten the ignorants like u,there's difference between 'nagarpalika' and 'mahanagarpalika' just as 'municpal council' and 'municipal corporation'.
• Marathi use the word 'Mahanagarpalika' and its different than Kanndi 'mahanagarpalike'.U need help.
• THIS IS THE LAST TIME IM TELLING U,THE LANGUAGE DISPLAYED ON THE BOARD IS HINDI OR MARATHI.HINDI DOESNT USE THE WORD MAHANAGARPALIKA,BUT IT USES THE WORD NAGAR NIGAM.STOP MAKING FOOL OF URSELF.
• Hindi speakers will not call बेळगांव but बेलगांव
• If u r so worried,urge ECI,that Hindi has no ळ in its script. Ask them to see www.haryana-online.com/devnagri.htm and Devnagari
• See this http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html IT CLEARLY MENTIONS USAGE OF MARATHI IN BELGAON MAHANAGARPALIKA.

Morever the link u gave,shows usage of 'ळ' (a exception)for South Indian names.बेळगांव is a Marathi name.Kannada people reportedly call it as some belgavi or something.Its Belgaon बेळगांव written over that board,and not that odd Kannada name.Its Marathi!

• Stop embarrassing yourself. Even on that photo, the word 'BeLagavi' is written in big bold letters on the very first line. Only if you could read Kannada. Sarvagnya 20:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
• I think something's seriously wrong with u.I dont care whatever is written in Kannada.I am referring to Nagari script.Its not the translation of any south indian language like 'haLLis' and 'paLLis'.mahawiki 02:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop bugging others.Belgaon Mahanagarpalika uses Marathi and u try it as much u want,u just cant deny that.U have had enuf speculations,its time to wind up and stop wasting others time. mahawiki 19:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

NAGARPALIKA

Nagarpalika is NOT a Marathi word. I've said this before and you keep raising this again and again. It seems to me that you have a problem understanding English. Let me copy and paste what I've already written on this page.

• "I am amazed at what you can make up on the fly! Just take a look at these [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] and many more such sites. If these dont suffice, just try googling for "'the state of your choice' + Nagarpalika". You will be surprised that almost all states in India from Gujarat to MP to UP to uttaranchal to HP are using Marathi!! "
• Clearly Nagarpalika is a word used all over india in many many languages. STOP MISLEADING PEOPLE! Sarvagnya 20:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Nagarpalika may be used extensively but Mahanagarpalika is an MARATHI word.Clearly,the language in nagari is either Marathi or Hindi.So dont even look for other languages.MAHANAGARPALIKA IS A MARATHI WORD! mahawiki 02:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Google for "Bangalore Mahanagarpalika", "Vadodara Mahanagarpalika", "Rajkot Mahanagarpalika", "Jamnagar Mahanagarpalika" and many more. None of these 'Mahanagarpalikas' are in MH and none of these have anything to do with Marathi. Infact, googling just told me that even Nepalis use the term Mahanagarpalika for their municipal bodies. So essentially your theory that Mahanagarpalika is a Marathi word deserves to be summarily trashed. Sarvagnya 03:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Mahanagarpalikas are nothing but Nagarpalikas that achieve a certain growtth, population etc. Once a Nagarpalika grows, it becomes a Mahanagarpalika. Get that straight. Sarvagnya 03:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

ORIGIN OF THE NAMES BELGAUM, BELAGAVI, BELGAON

Stop claiming that the origin of these words is from Marathi. Either cite sources for your nonsense or stop making tall claims. Sarvagnya 20:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

.I dont care about that odd word u use in Kannada,but the English Belgaum is apabhransha of Belgaon.I dont need to prove citations like u have not provided for the idiotic theory of 'haLLis and paLLis'. mahawiki 02:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

USAGE OF ळ IN HINDI

As the Election Comm of India's website and this website show, ळ is very much used in Hindi while representing the occurance of the sound in other languages. (Note: Do a Ctrl F for the string 'पळ्ळि' and/or 'ळ' on those page) Sarvagnya 20:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly!word used on board is बेळगांव.And बेळगांव is an Marathi word.ळ is not used while translating Marathi to Hindi.South Indian languages are the only exception where ळ is used(in Hindi). The link http://www.aksharamala.com/hindi/isb/song/?id=17956 u gave is of no use.See the use of ळ there!

Again see http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html

Mahanagarpaliks is a Marathi word and in Hindi 'municpal corporation' is termed as Nagar Nigam. mahawiki 02:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ask Sarvagnya to behave!

The user Sarvagnya is ignoring my citations and bragging continuously.See his language which is being used whilst replying me.I think he has got overwhelmed by the confrontation of truth.I would also request u to look into all the citations I have given and then talk,Also avoid using words like 'nonsense','ur english is bad' blah blah.mahawiki 02:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In Hindi Belgaon is referred as बेलगाव.

• http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1466366.cms
• http://www1.navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1200596.cms

Write बेळगांव or बेळगाव and try seraching on net.ALL the results are in Marathi.

• http://www.google.com/search?hs=2wO&hl=en&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&q=%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B3%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%B5&btnG=Search

• http://www.google.com/search?q=%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B3%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B5&hl=en&hs=oI4&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&start=10&sa=N

mahawiki 03:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think it is high time that you stopped using your convoluted logic and canvassing for sympathy. Keep the discussion on this talk page limited to the article and take you alarmist propoganda elsewhere.
• As for Mahanagarpalika, La and the origin of the name belgaum, it is clear as day to everyone here that you either have not provided any citation at all or the citations you have provided prove nothing. My links on the other hand prove that, 'La' is very much used in written hindi to represent the occurence of the sound in other languages. I've also proved with my examples of the Bangalore Mahanagarapalike, Rajkot Mahanagarpalike, Jamnagar, Vadodara and other examples that your fabricated theory asserting "Mahanagarpalike is a Marathi word" does not hold water. Sarvagnya 04:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Its my final warning to u.Stop personal attacks.I am just not intrested entertaining u.Restrict ur talks to the relevent issues.Answering ur commenrs is like 'dignifying the barking dogs'.(note tht this is ur terminology which u had used for Marathi people).I do know u have frustrated completely as I am speaking the same language of citations!Morever ur claim about 'it will take more 50 years of struggle by Centre's stand' is vanished just before 50 hours of ur blabbering.Truth is with us and hopefully it shall win.Wake up!Its 21st century no one can enslave Maharashtrians when they are asserting their wishs to join Maharashtra thru ballot-boxes.Their is no Kannada in Belgaon and Belgaon Mahanagarpalika.No one can stop our dream of Sanyukta Maharashtra'.

• This is the last time I am giving u this link OPEN UR EYES AND READ IT CAREFULLY. http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html This citation is apt to prove the fact that Marathi is indeed used in Belgaon city and Mahanagarpalika.
• The board is in Devnagari script which is only used by Marathi and Hindi.(I hope u shall not contest about it that it can be Nepali or Sanskrit!)Out of which 'Mahangarpalika' is used by Marathi and Hindi uses 'NAGAR NIGAM' for Municipal council.Perhaps Mahanagarpalika is used in Gujarati too,but the board surely isnt in Gujarati script.

• See http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1466366.cms

AND
http://www1.navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1200596.cms

This confirms that in Hindi Belgaum is known as बेलगाव and not बेळगांव.

• Usage of ळ is not done in Hindi.The citations u provided are JUST EXCEPTIONAL.See Devnagariand http://www.haryana-online.com/devnagri.htm

Thanks. mahawiki 05:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll

I am listing this survey under WP:POLLS. This survey does not determine who "wins" or even what course of action this article may take. This survey is designed as a means of gathering information on any existing consensus, and is not intended as a means of determining consensus on any point of contention.

Please write a brief yes or no and sign your name using four tildes ~ ~ ~ ~ for the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed. Thank you,--Amerique 06:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Is it appropriate to list Marathi names for things within the Belgaum article?

• • YES.Please see the citations I have given on this talk page again and again! mahawiki 06:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• • No. Local people talking in more than one languages, is a common thing in border areas. However, in articles of other border places such as Kasargod, Hosur, Sholapur etc, only the official language of the state where the place belongs to, is considered. In this case, Belgaum is in Karnataka, and Marathi is not an official language of Karnataka. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 18:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • No. Sarvagnya 18:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• • It is not only appropriate but absolutely right to list marathi names for things within Belgaum article. There should be question if we need to include Kannada names in Belgaum articles. Karnataka is not a country, and Marathi is one of official language of India. Majority of people Belgaum are Marathi. Thus Marathi is the obvious choice.

If someone really wants I can prove that I am from Belgaum. I have lived in belgaum for more than 25 years. I studied in Marathi medium as most of my friends do. Belgaum has a mejority Marathi people, but is unfortunatetly included in Karnataka. It is not Maharashtra govt but people of Belgaum are fighting to go into Maharashtra. Almost everyone in Belgaum speaks Marathi. But since, it is Karnataka, the govt tries to impose Kannadda Languages. Fortunately, our Indian consitution gives some rights to the local civic bodies such as Municipal corporation, Taluka panchayat, gram panchayat. Taluka and gram panchayat use only Marathi as official language with people, but city corporation use Marathi, English and Kannadda. I believe Wikipedia is not owned by Karnataka Govt, and hence is right to use Marathi. --Sandipani 03:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Re: KNM's comment, in this case, where there is a significant border dispute, and when the borders themselves were drawn on linguistic lines, do you think it is inappropriate or POV for the article to reflect this dispute by displaying the linguistic terms of both cultural groups involved in the dispute? While those other articles you mentioned don't make reference to any un-official languages, they also don't indicate that any disputes driven by language are affecting their borders. In this context, I personally find the reflection of multiple linguistic groups within the article as entirely appropriate and NPOV, and I look forward to discussing these matters civilly and in good faith.--Amerique 22:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• First off, all state borders in India have been drawn on linguistic lines. The K'taka-MH border near belgaum is no exception. And cities like Sholapur and Kasargod are just as disputed or just as 'not disputed' as belgaum. Both Sholapur and Kasargod infact, form a central part of the Mahajan commission report. The MC basically recommended transfer of both Sholapur and Kasargod to K'taka and further also recommended that Belgaum remain with Ktaka. Sarvagnya 23:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I am surprised to see that Sarvagnya is making up the stories to prove his point of view. He should be aware that Mahajan Commision did not recommend transfering of Solapur to Maharashtra. The commision recommended transfer of few villages from each state. The controversy was never about Solapur, but about Belgaum. The Beglgaum was not recommended to transfer on administrative ground. It has nothing to do with Solupur. --Sandipani 03:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• This link is already cited on the article page and it clearly mentions that solapur was recommended by the commission to be transferred to Karnataka. So please stop obfuscating the issue by misleading people. Sarvagnya 03:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your summary. I have no background in any of this and assume in good faith that everything said on this page is verifiable.--Amerique 00:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• And if those articles(esp the Sholapur one) dont make any mention of any 'un-official' languages or dont make a mention of the dispute, its because mahawiki has been militantly deleting every reference to even the word 'Kannada' there. You can go and check the history of edits on that article. Sarvagnya 23:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

May be you can provide some links to show the intensity of the fictitious struggle you are talking about. Please stop referring to Solapur. It was never a disputed place. --Sandipani 03:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've done that, and hereby beseech Mahawiki to cease deleting references to Kannada terminology on Wikipedia articles.--Amerique 00:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• While nobody is contesting the fact that Marathis are a prominent linguistic group in Belgaum city and 'mention' certainly can be made of that(and has been made), Kannada is still the only official language of the state. And Belgaum, notwithstanding Maharashtra's plea in the courts, has always been and continues to be a legal and constitutional part of Karnataka. Also there are no precedents in this case. Like KNM said all state border all over india is a multilingual mix. If we were to set a precedent here, there would be no end to it. Talking of similar examples and precedents, let me draw your attention to El Paso, Texas or any such city/state in the southern part of U.S where Hispanics are the dominant linguistic group. In none of those articles would you see Spanish transliterations. And the percentage of Hispanics in El Paso is far far greater than the percentage of Marathis in Belgaum. And Belgaum city is only one of the many taluks in Belgaum district. The percentage of Marathis in the Belgaum district is not even close to being called dominant. Compare that with hispanics all across southern united states, and yet in none of the articles about southern united states would you find Spanish transliterations for anything inspite of the fact that Spanish is officially the second language of the United States. Sarvagnya 23:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is where I think progress can be made on this issue. I myself am of Mexican ancestry, and am aware of the border issues affecting the US and Mexico which such things as the English only movement in the US make manifest. To me, the border issues in India seem a lot more complex, because of how the languages predominant in particular regions were explicitly used in constructing the borders. There is not a similar sort of precedent in the US; the use of language in various border towns between the US and Mexico is more a consequence of 2 entirely different waves of colonization meeting each other than with any centeralized attempt at constructing state boundaries between different cultural groups. To me, if multi-lingual regions can be said to "benefit from their diversity," then the issue of displaying muli-lingual references should not be a problem, and would not be a bad precedent to set in terms of constructing this encyclopedia. "El Paso" itself is a Spanish name, and the article on Texas does use respective linguistic terms to discuss the state's multi-lingual heritage.--Amerique 00:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• While I agree that the underlying principles of constructing borders in the U.S and India are different, the situation is still quite similar as far as articles on wikipedia are concerned. You must remember that, all said and done, Spanish has greater sanction in the United States' constitution(In that it is officially the second language) than Marathi or any language for that matter, does in Karnataka. In India all states have their own official languages and only one official language at that. For Karnataka of which Belgaum is undeniably a part of, it is Kannada and only Kannada.
• If we were to start including transliterations of every language that is spoken by large numbers in a city, we will only end up cluttering the articles with many different transliterations. For example even on this very article, we would need to add Telugu and Konkani too. The fate of articles about major Indian cities would be even worse. For example, Mumbai, which incidentally is like New York city in many ways, would end up with a dozen transliterations in a dozen different languages plastered all over the article.
• The fair thing to do would be to, stick to the official language of the state as far as the transliterations are concerned and at the same time, make a mention of all the different linguistic groups that form a significant part of the cities' populations and their contributions to the city's history, culture etc.,. Sarvagnya 01:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not try listing the different names for just this article? It might not make the article look neater, but it would be more informative and might offset the revert warring that has to do with this claim of Maharashtra's.--Amerique 02:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If a consensus can be reached, the Marathi pronunciation of the name(Belgaon as opposed to Belagavi in Kannada and Belgaum in English) can certainly be mentioned but not in Marathi script. Sarvagnya 02:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Drawing borders to separate states on linguistic basis is not limited to this article or to Belgaum alone.

Regarding the border dispute, the required information has already been mentioned in the article, and is only because Maharashtra's petition is with Supreme court.

Historically, Belgaum was ruled by Kannada speaking kings. Also, after the independence of India the following reports indicate clearly Belgaum has to be part of Karnataka and it has been part of Karnataka always.

• States Reorganisation Act
• 4 Member comittee (citation provided in the article)
• Mahajan commission (citation provided in the article)

So, definetely there is no signficant border dispute here. Hence, I strongly consider putting non-Kannada language(other than English, ofcourse) here becomes POV and thus not appropriate. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 01:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for engaging in this discussion with me. What I don't understand completely is the basis on which Maharashtra is making this petition. Sarvagnia informed me, and Mahawiki would seem to concur, that "Marathis are a prominent linguistic group in Belgaum city." In context of this petition by the Maharashtra state I can see how displaying the Marathis word for Belgaum can be interperted as showing political support for Maharashtra's claim to the city. As someone not involved in these politics, the issue to me as an editor would be how to show the basis for which these politics do exist without showing favoritism or dissenfranchizing the article from the rich diversity that exists within the city's population. As the state was constructed along linguistic lines it would naturally follow that Kannada would be the "official language" of the state, but if the linguistic names for Belgaum from all three of its major populations were included would that not at all help mitigate the political charge and possibly help end the revert warring?--Amerique 02:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Amerique, thanks for trying to mediate on the topic. I have been reading Sarvagnya comments, and I am amazed how he has been trying to divert the topic by introducing many irrelevant topics. This might be very confusing for a person like who has not much idea background about the political system in India. I am from Belgaum , I have lived there for more than 25 years. I can't speak Kannada because I never felt necessary. I can send you certificates if you really wanted to verify if I am from Belgaum or not. I can easily say that Sarvagnya has never visited Belgaum; probably not any place close to Belgaum. I request you to verify whatever claims he has been making. I have responded to almost all claims made by Sarvagnya at the respective places.

BTW, I can't agree with your one comment displaying the Marathis word for Belgaum can be interperted as showing political support for Maharashtra's claim to the city. There is not a slightest possibility that the content on wikipedia would be used by supreme court to support Maharashtra claim. If that was the case Belgaum would have already been in Maharashtra. Because you can find hundreds of things in Belgaum which support Maharashtra's claim. --Sandipani 15:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Well, Maharashtra's contention when it first raked up the issue(in the 50s and 60s) was that Marathis were the linguistic majority in Belgaum and hence Belgaum and some adjoining areas should merge with MH. But the States Reorganisation committee in 1956, the four member committee in 1957 and the (Meherchand)Mahajan Committee in 1966(headed by a retired Supreme Court Chief Justice) all disagreed with Maharashtra and hence Belgaum has always remained a part of Karnataka. The committee also recommended transferring Sholapur(from Maharashtra) and Kasargod(from Kerala state) to Karnataka. But the committee's recommendations never got implemented due to politics and Karnataka reconciled to maintaining status quo. For decades after that, this issue was treated as a closed chapter by everyone concerned though MH kept raking it up from time to time.
• 40 years later, Maharashtra filed a petition in the Supreme Court saying Belgaum city should be merged with Maharashtra. However, this time round, their contention is that the 'Marathi population in Belgaum city is feeling insecure' and hence Belgaum city should be merged with Maharashtra. This was a case that was filed very recently(only months ago) and the case is still in its preliminary stages. In all fairness, Maharashtra's contention should find a mention in the article and it has. But to carry it beyond that, and add transliterations in the Marathi script would certainly not be appropriate and like you said, might send the wrong signals especially in this case where Maharashtra's petition is sub judice not to mention that it might set a bad precedent and engender numerous other edit wars on article pages of other cities(like you've already seen on Sholapur). Sarvagnya 02:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this information, there was an editing conflict with Mahawiki as I tried to reply. Under the circumstances, how would you feel about removing the Kannada script from the Belgaum article until this case runs its course? I'm not trying to go out on a limb here, but as Kannada is the official language of Karnataka, is it necessary to have to mention it in this article? I am not trying to say that including the script shows bias in displaying factual information as to the language of the state, but the information might not immediately pertain to the article, and under the circumstances of Maharashtra's petition it seems to me that the editing issue may become an "all or nothing" proposition as far as the linguistic scripts go. Anyway, I have to go offline, but thanks for responding to me about this issue.--Amerique 04:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

User Sarvagnya is repeatedly stating false statements. The four memeber comitte did not reach any decision. The Mahajan comission did not recommend the transfer of Belgaum to Maharashtra Govt. on "Administrative ground" [11]. The comission only recommended transfering some villages, and not Solapur city, from each state. There was never a dispute with solapur city. Sarvagnya should provide a few links mentioning struggle of the local people to move into Karnatak before making any statement. "Belgaum was always a part of the Karnataka" is another ignorant statement. Belgaum was in Bombay state (now Maharashtra and Karnataka) before 1956. It was a part of Sangli Sansthan (a marathi King) during british rule. The issue was started only because Belgaum was unfairly transfered into Karnataka. --Sandipani 04:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Unlike our friend Sarvagnya claims the issue was never closed. I should stress a point here that it is the people of Beglaum are fighting against Karnataka govt. Maharashtra govt guides and help them from time to time. Maharashtra Ekikaran Samita (MES), a popular party in Belgaum region has been contesting the elections on only one issue for last 50 years. And they have been winning elections for state assembly and also in all local civic bodies. Govt of India tried to solve the problem by involving chief ministers of both states. But Karnataka govt always refused to have discussion because of the fear of losing belgaum to Maharashtra. After exhausting all other democratic options, Maharashtra Govt in association with MES decided to seek the justice from the Supreme court. Writing in Marathi is even more important than writing in Kanadi. The belgaum issue has nothing to do with Solapur, which was NEVER disputed. Belgaum is a city with a unique dispute in India. Mumbai is a cosmopolitan city, but has highest proportion of Marathi people (45%) and hence cannot be correlated with Belgaum. I request the moderators to search for other cities in India. You won't find a single city with this kind of disparity in an independent India. --Sandipani 05:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

They want to say that as some kannada tribes rules Belgaon for some time,it should go to Karnataka.These ppl are nothing but illogical blabbers who just have no competence of being even an editor.I think than Maharashtra should ask for Baroda,Indore or infact Attak(now in Afghanistan) as Marathas have ruled these regions too.Wikipedia is runied because of such fanatics who just want to push their POV.Note that this user has failed to prove that the script on Belgaon mahanagarpalika is hindi.He is too sad and frustrated as we have proved that Marathi is used as official language in Belgaon mahanagarpalika.No matter how they cry,its a truth.if u r not including Marathi transliteration there's no need of Kannada transliteration too! mahawiki 05:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why should be a Marathi transliteration essential for this article

Solapur is NOT disputed as Belgaum is,but Kasargode surely is.Dont even compare Belgaum with other towns and cities.The biased Mahajan report which other users are talking about has been dismissed by Maharashtra and Kerala alike.But the fact to consider is Belgaon municipal corporation actually uses Marathi as official language.It is being proved just by two instances.

• http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html (serach for Marathi here)
• Marathi board displayed on Belgaon Mahanagarpalika

http://www.pudhari.com/Static/Features/Belgaon_border_issue/f_belgaon154.htm

When a local body uses another Marathi,the ppl opposing Marathi transliteration are nobody. Solapur Mahanagarpalika http://www.solapurcorporation.com doesnt use Kannada or any other language.BUT BELGAON MAHANAGARPALIKA DOES.Their is no reason to quarrel when it is proved that Marathi is used as a official language in Belgaon. mahawiki 04:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the news story can be used to support a 3 transliteration solution.--Amerique 04:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, the corporation body he speaks about has been dissolved precisely for adopting an anti-Karnataka stance. Neither the corporation nor the trilingual boards exist anymore and the city is under the Deputy Commissioner's administration. Sarvagnya 05:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks god!!!! finally you agreed that Marathi is the official language of Belgaum. --Sandipani 14:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Even the board in front of the now defunct corporation(shown in the Pudhari.com pic) does not have Marathi in it. That it is Marathi is merely Mahawiki's opinion and POV. It is infact Hindi(the confusion on Mahawiki's part is because both Hindi and Marathi use the same script -Devanagari). Sarvagnya 05:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Have u got any serious problem?U need help for sure.By my citations I have proved that the language on the board is Marathi.THERE IS NO 'ळ' in Hindi!!!!!See Devnagari and http://www.haryana-online.com/devnagri.htm

Prove me that its Hindi if there no ward called Mahanagarpalika in Hindi and absolutely no 'ळ' in Hindi script!!! mahawiki 15:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe the way in which you trying to divert the main issue by talking about dozens of irrelevant things. Dissolution of civic body does not change the past decisions taken by the body. I don't know, why can't you understand such simple thing. Many times central govt dissolves state government and impose president rule. Based your thesis, the language of that state should be changed to Hindi as it is the national language. Please think for a second before making any argument. --Sandipani 14:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If anyone thinks the language depicted is not Marathi,one has to prove it.To remind u again,Mahanagarpalika is a Marathi word and Hindi counterpart is Nagar Nigam.Stop hiding truths!!Even if Belgaon Mahanagarpalika has been dissolved its because of its resolution to join Maharashtra.The Marathi language is used as per Official language act passed by Karnataka govt.Look if u dont want to have meaningful debate plz dont reply.Go thru my ALL citation again.Dont act smart by ignoring citations.Everyone including u know that the language used on the board is Marathi.If u want to prove otherwise,plz give citations.I have proved that MARATHI IS USED AS A OFFICIAL LANGUAGE IN BELGAON.mahawiki 15:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sandipani, Hindi is not THE national language of India. Please check this article to see what are the national languages of India. Also please note this sentence in the same article:

Neither the constitution nor the laws of India accord the status of "National Language" to any language in India. Thanks. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 15:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I knew the status of Hindi languages, but thanks for the link. It seems you have not read the entire article. My statement is still true, may be I need to reprhase it. This sentence is also from the same article Two languages are the languages used by the central administration:. The two languages are Hindi and English. --Sandipani 15:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hindi is commonly used on boards of government offices all over the country. So we would have to start adding the Hindi transliterations for every single city and town in India. Sarvagnya 05:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This statement proves that you agree with all others that the boad in front of City corporation is indeed in Marathi. On the other hand it also reveals the depth of your knowledge. You should know that banks, Railway, Aviation, military (and NOT city corporation) comes under the jurisdiction of Central govt. This is the reason you can see hindi boards on those buildings. Banks, Railways etc do not deal with the civil issues. Their presence is only limited to those buildings. --Sandipani 15:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Kannadisation

I was opposing the frequent and unnecessary mentions of Kannada and Kannada people in Solapur,Akkalkot and of course in Belgaum article.Solapur is peacefully with Maharashtra and the linguistic minorities are not oppressed by us.Morever they are only handfull of them.Forget about it,my aunt is from Gulberga and she is Tulu.Tulu and Kannada are as close as Konkani and Marathi.But still is says the people there are not comfortable with """imposition of Kannada""". Coming to the point please see the deliberate mentions of Kannada on Solapur article.There is NO controversy like that of Belgaon there.Note how Kannada ppl are busy to show on that article that how Kannada culture is prevalent there.Alsp see Kaveri_dispute.This is one more controversy that Karnataka has with other states.Look there too,the Kannada ppl are busy pressing their POV.See Marathi and Tamil.There too this Kannad fanatics are busy proclaiming that Marathi lanugage and Marathi literature is too YOUNG than Kannad's.How Kannada has influenced Marathi,how Konakani is older than Marathi blah blah.

The Kannada and rajkumar page signifies how these Kannad fanatics are so insecure and have inferiority complex.On Kannada page,I am sure these guys must have 'exaggerated' the oldness and 'classical status' of the language.A user is always telling them that Kannada is derived from Tamil(although not verified completely but he cites example) but these guys in turn vandalise Tamil page.Dr.Rajkumar's mother-tongue is Telagu,but see these guy DONT allow this mention on that page.See the length of that page.He is surely a great actot,but he is obviously doesnt deserve so much space!This is what a call is Kannad marketing.See the user Dineshkannmbi's talk on this page itself.See some amma's statue(of bangalore)is mentioned in this article.Why should a Banglorean amma find a place here.

IF YOU CAN PROVIDE CITATIONS FOR ANY OF YOUR ABOVE ATROCIOUS CLAIMS, I WILL COPY AND PASTE YOUR EXACT WORDS INTO THOSE ARTICLES MYSELF. OR IF YOU CAN DISPROVE ANYTHING THAT IS WRITTEN ON THOSE PAGES, I WILL BE GLAD TO REMOVE IT MYSELF Sarvagnya 04:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Read this story of Kannadda chauvinists from your own people [12]. This is an essay by a Kannadda writter, which gives detailed accounts of the treatment given by Kannadda fanatics to the minorities in Karnataka. Here is a few sentences from this essay.

Or take the Kannadigas in kasargod who have preserved their language, culture and identity. But hey do not vote for the Karnataka Ekikaran Samithi and agitate constantly for merger with Karnataka like the Marathi's in Belgaum who are solidly behind the Maharashtra Ekikaran Samithi. Why is this so?

This is not because the Kasargod Kannadigas do not love Kannada or Karnataka, as some have begun to suggest, but because the economic, social, political and cultural benefits give to them as minorities are plentiful, especially when compared to the shabby and oppressive treatment of Marathis in Karnataka. Further, the Kannada litterateurs point to Tamil Nadu and point out that, under the DMK, all government installed signboards on buses, roads etc., are in Tamil only.

NOW, I WANT YOU TO COPY AND PASTE THESE SENTENCES. LET'S SEE HOW YOU RESPOND TO THIS --Sandipani 01:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sarvagnya is not only having unnecessary debate over Marathi transliteration,but he also wants Bangla,Sanskrit or/and Hindi transliteration removed from Jana_Gana_Mana, Vande_mataram and note his vandalism at Hindi page, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hindi&diff=73968761&oldid=73662164 This shows his disrespect for other languages and tendency of pushing his Kannadi POV everywhere. mahawiki 05:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please provide enough reasons whuy shouldnt Marathi transliteration be used in this article.U have failed miserably whilst proving that script dispayed on Belgaon mahanagarpalika board is in Hindi.Stop misleading others.I shall be happy to include kannada transliteration on Solapur page if u prove Kannada is widely spoken official langugaee theremahawiki 04:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Such Kannad fanatics just disrespect other languages.He cited example of Solapur,but did u know as we know Akkalkot has significant Kannada speaker,we did include it on that page.Its high time to tell them that we are just not intrested in ur marketing of Kannada and karnataka! mahawiki 03:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Mahawiki, we have to assume good faith on the part of all participants for the collaboration process to work. If we want to change any articles, we have to do so as a consensus. Otherwise we wind up with endless revert wars and what we've seen on these various talk pages.--Amerique 04:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why sholapur and akkalkot, the Mahajan commission dealt with hundreds of other towns and villages on both sides of the border. Do you know about any of that. I fully know that Akkalkot has a very prominent Kannadiga population, but I am not into throwing in hundred different names and bringing in totally unrelated and irrelevant articles into the picture and confuse people. Stick to the point of discussion and stop bringing in irrelevant and unrelated stuff in a bid to confuse people. Sarvagnya 04:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems Sarvagnya is talking a bit of sense. Yes, Akkalkot has good percentage of Kannadda people. But do you know that this is a very small town, and Maharashtra govt has no problem in tranfering this town to Karnataka if Karnataka govt tranfers all marathi majority area to Maharashtra. Some what smaller city Nipani and town Khanapur which as more than 80% marathi people have also been recommended to tranfer into Maharashtra. The core issue is Belgaum, so please don't divert the topic. --Sandipani 05:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you realise that the 'Marathis are majority' line is a dead and buried issue? It was raised by MH in the 50s and 60s and competent authorities and commissions(one of them headed by no less than a Supreme Court Chief Justice) rejected Maharashtra's claims? Even the Maharashtra government has dropped singing that line now. It can be seen in the fact that they have petitioned the court on flimsy grounds like 'Security of Marathis is at stake'. So stop using your percentages. It is not relevant to the case anymore. Sarvagnya 05:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess, you wanted to be the one decide what is dead and what is alive. My percentage of Marathi people was in response to your claim about Akkalkot. I really don't understand what are the basis of your debate. I would like to make four points. Please don't divert the topic and bring in the other cities.

1) Belgaum was ruled in Bombay state before 1956. It was ruled by sangli sansthan (a marathi king) during british rule. The dispute raised only because it was unfairly transfered into Karnataka. (response to your claim that belgaum have always been ruled by Karnataka)

2) Belgaum and sarrounding area have Marathi majority. All local civic bodies are ruled by pro-maharastrian politicians (proved).

3)Marathi is the main language used by local people. Marathi and Kanadi are used as as official languages of Belgaum (Proved).

4)States in India are not as autonomous as in USA, forget about any sovereignty. It is the federal govt who decides the boundaries. Local civic bodies have fairly good autonomy (they can decide their languages correpsondance with the people)(A well known fact).

With all these points, I see writing in Marathi is more important than writing in any other languages. --Sandipani 06:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

mahawiki

it is kannada and not kannadi,please refresh ur memory. wikipedia is not the place for using slurs/slangs or short forms,call it whatever u may,u have no right to write kannadi here.

and by calling sarvagnya's claim as ridiculuous,ur claim for a "sanyukta maharsthra" is equally crappy.

belgaum or belgavi whatever it is,is right now under the jurisdiction of karnataka. and its welfare and development will not change by going to maharasthra. Marathi speakers in belgavi havent been harrased. if you really want to include belgavi/belgaon as part of maharsthra and write so in the article wait for the court hearing.

ur civility is less compared to that of sarvagnya.u seem to be ending ur posts with lame comments like jai maharsthra.

like whatever,this aint a political wrestleground.articles and discussions need to be encyclopidic in nature and ur edits have been totally pointless.

The very first thing, before lecturing others, is that you should sign your comments. Comments without signature have no value on wikipedia. Now coming to your points. I really don't understand why are so getting irritated with the well known word "kanadi". It is not a slang. In northern India names of the all languages Gujarati, bengali, hindi, marathi, jharkandi, manipuri, nepali, kashmiri, panjabi,shindi, bhojpuri, assami, marwadi end with "i". The same rule is applied to the language in Karnataka too. I know many people call it "Kanad" also. This is not derogatory. Nobody is denying that Belgaum is currently in Karnataka. But, will that stop people of Belgaum using Marathi? Will that stop people of belgaum fighting with Karnataka govt? Again, nobody is trying to write Belgaum as a part of Maharashtra. The debate is only about writing belgaum in marathi (along with Kannada), so now you can judge how sarvagnya behaving. It was "Dinesh Kanambadi" who provokated others to write "Jai Maharashtra" by writing "jai Karnatak mate". Read his comments. --Sandipani 06:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

well,in south india which i would prefer to call as deccan,there are four languages: tamil,telugu,kannada,malayalam.

try adding a 'i' to it u goof.try doing that to english as well. dont extra polate your rules to the rest of the world.just because a set of shitheads call it by that name doesnt imply that,that is the actual pronounciation.

as i said give me a wiki article with the name 'kannadi' and then i will see how to react to that. for starters,its your prononuciation problem that leads to this wrong pronounciataion.

just because sarvagnya acts eccentric need not imply that even you act fanatical and change everything to marathi.go contact a admin you know and get him to act.

and here are some more languages for your thoughts,dont apply ur bullshit "theories" to these: assamese(and not assami),oriya(and not oriyi),tulu(and not tuli),Mizo(and not mizi),it is urdu(and not urdi),bodo(and not bodi),angika(and not angiki).

need more?--Jayanthv86 17:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to give explaination why many people call Kanadi, this should not be a rule. Additionally, I was trying to tell it is not derogatory or anything. Major langueges in North India do end with 'i' or 'ee'. Other languages have unique pronouciation in all languages, but kannada not. I know many people pronounce it as "Kannad", "Kannada" and "Kanadi". Kannada script itself is "Kannad" and not "Kannada". It is not uncommon to have more way of pronoucing for any languages. For example, (spanish, espanol), (English, angreji, ingraji, angl..) what is the best pronounciation of Bangalore? Bengalore, Benglore, Bangaluru, Bengaluru, or bengaluroo. BTW, THE ISSUE WAS NOT WITH RESPECT TO HOW TO PRONOUCE KANNADA, BUT THE USER SARVAGNA. Some administrator intervned, but still it wasn't easy to get user sargagna act. I did not totally oppose Kannada transliteration, but wanted to include Marathi, which deserves to be included. Fortunately, now the issue has been solved. Hopefully, such things won't be repeated in the future. --Sandipani 17:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

ya sure,no more trolling in the future. sorry for the misunderstanding.--Jayanthv86

Stop responding to Sarvagnya

Its clear by now that sarvagnya and his kannad friends have no evidence whatsoever to prove that Marathi is not used as a official language in Belgaon.Whereas,I have proved the reverse by following citations-

• http://in.news.yahoo.com/051126/48/618nr.html (Search for the word Marathi here)
• http://www.pudhari.com/Static/Features/Belgaon_border_issue/f_belgaon154.htm (the picture here depicts usage of Marathi)

If u see the same talk page,u will see that Sarvagnya has failed to prove that 'the board is not in Marathi'.Even nichalp,samir and aksi_great has also confirmed that the board is in Marathi indeed.Morever Offical Language act(passes by Karnataka govt.) also permits the usage of Marathi in Belgaum and adjoining regions.(see: http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/25/stories/2006012505160300.htm )

When a municipal corporation of a city uses a particluar language,it does only but confirms its official status.Since sarvagnya had no other issues to rake up he has deliberately changed the course of debate to Solapur,Kasargode,Akkalkot etc.This is to tell him that if he proves that the municpal councils/corporations of Mumbai, Solapur, Akkalkot, Akkalkot uses the other language (than state's official language) we shall be more than happy to include its transliteration on respective pages.

Lastly,if Sarvagnya needs entertainment and attention he is adviced to go somewhere else.This is an serious and sensational topic.Just crying foul for word Kannadi,then Solapur,then Akkalkot,how 'La' is used in Hindi,mindless commentry over haLLis and paLLis etc shows his seriousness about the topic.The kannadisation of Belgaum shall not be allowed here.Plz take a chill pill and prove WHY Marathi shoudnt be included on this page when Belgaum municipal corporation uses it as an official language?Dont touch the keyboard unless u have answers to above mentioned questions. mahawiki 08:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

"ळ" in Hindi?

There is a great debate going on about authenticity of my ciatation. I welcome everyone to post your views about:-

• Whether the Devnagari Text displayed on a photo located at below link is Hindi or Marathi?

http://www.pudhari.com/Static/Features/Belgaon_border_issue/f_belgaon154.htm

• Is 'ळ' used in Hindi language?

• What is the Hindi word for Municipal corporation? 'Mahanagarpalika'(महानगरपालिका) OR 'Nagar Nigam' (नगर निगम)?

Please give ur views about it below.

Discussion

I think the script displayed on that board is Marathi. I have insisted that there's no ळ in Hindi. I think mahanagarpalika is indeed a Marathi word and its Hindi counterpart is Nagar nigam.Also बेळगांव is also a Marathi word,a Hindi speaker will pronounce it as बेलगाव or बेलगाम. mahawiki 15:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

To add,user Nichalp,samir and aksi_great have also confirmed above. mahawiki 15:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hindi does not have a ळ character. Unfortunately the link that you have asked to look at is showing garbage to me so can't comment on that. At the same time, Mahanagarpalika is Hindi (It may be Marathi also). At my native place Varanasi, it is called as Nagar Mahapalika, Varanasi, so I remember that. Regarding बेळगांव pronounciation, I agree with you. Thanks. --APandey 18:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone, who has no knowledge of Hindi might say that that ळ is used in Hindi. Belgaum in Hindi is written as बेलगाम. Here are few references (Note: These are central govt websites).

1) Indian railways [13] click on number 9 item on the left side (बु्किंग स्थान)

2) NIC website [14] (see row 14 in the list)

3) Interport Logistics [15] (hold the mouse pointer on "Belgaum" in the Map of India.

Belgaum in Marathi is written as बेळगाव. Here are the list of references. So the difference is not only with ळ, but also with गाव.

1)"Tarun Bharat" ,the most popular newspaper in Belgaum region [16]

2) "Pudhari", a newspaper published from Kolhapur, a city in south Maharashtra [17]

Now I request Sarvagnya and others who are debating about the hindi name to take some basic lessons in Hindi before debating. This will avoid debates on things that are obvious. --Sandipani 00:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Users agreeing to my claims

Apart from Sandipani and Apandey above,here's what other users view about the controversy of 'Marathi or Hindi'-

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Belgaum#My_2_paisa
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nichalp#Marathi_or_Hindi
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Aksi_great/Archive_6#Belgaum
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hindi#Does_Hindi_uses_.27.E0.A4.B3.27_.3F

mahawiki 05:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Another

Regardless of my position on Belgaon belonging to K'taka or Maharashtra, (hey, calling it K'taka is not an affront, is it??!!) THAT sign board is clearly in kaanaDi, maraaTHi and English.

asnatu 10:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

God of Belgaum

Can few of you join and contribute to article Vithoba,God of Belgaum.And also help in putting up a picture. Mahitgar 10:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal

I think, after discussions with several users, there are only two potential solutions to the immediate issue here:

• List however many linguistic scripts are appropriately representative of all the major and minor linguistic groups of Belgaum.

• List no linguistic scripts whatsoever, as the inclusion of any without others would be taken as a sign of POV support for a side in a political struggle.

I do not think I can make further interventions here, but I thank everyone for talking to me calmly and hospitably explaining these issues to me. I hope that the editing issue can be resolved to the mutual satisfaction of all involved parties. I beseech all users to assume good faith and consider that on WP there are possibilities for working together that do not exist in the real world. We should not try to replicate real world conflicts here, the challenge on WP is in representing these conflicts in a way that is fair, equitable, unbiased and well researched. Best regards to all,--Amerique 20:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Amerique, thanks for your honest attempt to solve the issue. As I mentioned above, I am from Belgaum. I have explained enough, why writing in Marathi is more important than in Kannada. Although the majority of people use Marathi, I am used to bilingual and trilingual situation also, especially in Karnataka govt offices. Moreover, we need to solve issues too. I am in favor of your first proposal, that is, include Kannada along with Marathi. No other language is spoken by a sizeable group. --Sandipani 01:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Amerique,thanks a lot.I would also prefer Marathi and Kannada transliteration simultaneously.I would request u to keep a watch on this article.Fortunately as truth is out,troublesome users have faded away.mahawiki 04:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Truth is out!Marathi transliteration is here to stay!!

That the board has Marathi on it is been proved as of now.Marathi transliteration of Belgaon is here to stay!This was actually a non-issue since all including those who were doubting it,knew it was Marathi.They were having debate for the sake of it.Sadly after giving dozens of citations,few arrogant users did take so long to admit it.And as truth is out these fanatics are invisible!!I would like to thank all senior wikipedians,guys who helped building consensus and unofficial plus official mediators for their efforts.It is because of their support and advice I got used to Wiki policies and how things work here.At the end of this battle I have turned into a citation-savvy wikipedian and also a bit practical too. Truth alone truimphs! mahawiki 16:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Why there is a link to Shivaji statue (in Bangalore)?

Statue is in bangalore and shivaji is not from belgaum. Then why there is a link? Leotolstoy 17:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Because there is a link in the article to Chennamma's statue in Bangalore. That seems to be his weird logic! Little does he realize that unlike Shivaji, Chennamma is a local of BeLagavi apart from being the first woman freedom fighter(though Jhansi Rani is often credited as the first, Chennamma fought the British before Jhansi Rani was perhaps even born!!).

Feel free to remove the link. It is irrelevant to the article. Sarvagnya 17:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed it and some one put that back.  I will wait for a day and if there is no problem I will remove it. Leotolstoy 20:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah,since there is a link to some queen's stautue of BANGALORE,a link to Shivaji Maharaj's statue ,which is a respectable figure,for Maharashtrians who form sizeable population in Belgaon, should be prsent.If u want to remove it,remove that queen's staute link too. Its irrelavant too! mahawiki 04:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

She was a queen "from" belgaum. So there should be a link to her statue. You are making this a pride issue. This is encyclopedia, not a place to show your language pride. I am going to delete that link. If you revert it back, then I will have to complain to moderators. Leotolstoy 13:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

If u have a link of statue of that queen in Belgaon than insert it/Mention of her statue in this article is no problem,but why arent u allowing Shivaji Maharaj's statue link?If u want delete Shivaji's link, I have to delete that queen's link too. mahawiki 13:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Chennamma stutue is just one of the dozens stutues in belgaum, and not a tourist attraction. Nobody comes to visit the stutue. Channamma was a queen of Kittur not Belgaum. Additionally, the section is about tourist attractions in belgaum and not the history of belgaum. People from south Karnataka should first do some study about belgaum, visit Belgaum, and stay there for few days, before editing this article. --Sandipani 02:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sambhaji maharaj and Shivaji Maharaj's statue mentions were erased, why?

The website http://www.reference.com uses wiki's information for its article on Belgaon.See [Google's cache of Belgaon article at reference.com] Why was those mentions removed from this article?I am going to wait for few hours and add it.Plz dont push ur POV and delete Maharashtra/Marathi related content. mahawiki 13:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Its you who is pushing your state/language's POV. Rani Chennamma is from Belgaum and its relevent to have link to her statue. Shivaji/sambhaji are not from belgaum. If you know any famous marathi person from belgaum feel free to add a link. This article is not about kannada/marathi pride. Leotolstoy 16:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I have replaced the link (to statue in Bangalore) with a link to statue of Rani Chennamma in Belgaum. Leotolstoy 16:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.I have added mentions of Sambhaji and Shivaji Udyan ,Belgaum. Source: [[18]] Statue of Shivaji Maharaj could be added as Maharashtrians form sizeable population there.Why have u added the limk about Queen's staute being installed im Delhi?How it relevent to this article?I have retained the link to queen's staute in Belgaon.

mahawiki 16:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI, the statue was installed in the premises of the Parliament. This is probably the only statue of a native of Belgaum there and it is a matter of honor for people of in and around of Belgaum (does not matter either marathi/kannada). I am putting it back. Instead of makng these pointless arguments try to improve the page by adding more information about the place and people there (again does not matter if they kannadiga or marathi). Leotolstoy 17:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I assume good faith and request u to reconsider ur stand.That link should be a part of Queen's article.Morever the citation of statue u gave is not valid since that page doesnt specify about the statute being installed in Belgaon.So I think that link should be deleted,instead add few words about that queen in article itself.I am waiting for few hours until u come with proper citations.mahawiki 03:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I really did not understand the logic behind that. Anyway "Assuming good faith" I have deleted that link and I have added a small paragraph about Chennamma (not chinnamma) in history section. Leotolstoy 17:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Your other counterparts were being rude while interacting here and hence the mention of 'good faith'.Nice that u added info about the queen in article.I have removed the statue link(since it is not confirmed if it is in Belgaon or not) and stamp pic(which should be a part of queen's article,not here).Thanks.Mahawiki 03:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have put statue link back. Here is the reference http://www.belgaumcity.gov.in/Intro.html. Leotolstoy 05:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Making this article better

Hi all, I can see that most of the energy on this article is being spent on border issue. There is enough material already on this page on this issue. So I request you to spend more energy on making this article more useful. I will be adding some sections and most of them will be blank for a start. Please help in expanding them. Leotolstoy 05:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Belgaum City Article

There is another article with title "belgaum district". Please don't include details about entire district in this article. I don't know who has added so many places of attractions. Most of the places can not be called as attractions. Additionally, a few of them are quite far from Belgaum city. I can give hundreds of places like listed below.

• Nandagad: Shoor Sangolli Rayanna Smarak
• Munavalli Panchalingeshwara Temple
• Hooli Panchalingeshwar Temple

Additionally, statues at road intersections are not the places of attraction. --Sandipani 03:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct.I hope other editors will take note of it.Else plz feel free to add those attractions in the article.Mahawiki 03:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Connections, etc.

The rail/air connections information is ancient, and should be updated. I have made some minor changes, but it would probably make more sense for someone actually in Belgaum to update this information (I am from Belgaum, but I don't live there anymore).

I also find it very embarrassing (as an Indian) that India-related articles such as these quickly become the battleground for wannabe politicians (on either side) who do not understand what Wikipedia is about. Nothing on this talk page is really relevant to facts related to Belgaum. If Belgaum is part of Karnataka today, it can be stated as a fact, that it will be part of Maharashtra tomorrow is subject to "time will tell". Wikipedia reports only on facts, not on (possibly speculative) future events.

Because of the huge number of educational institutions in Belgaum (and the military bases there), the influx of people from all over India (and even all over the world) has changed the language and cultural profile of the city considerably - just like any city that is subject to influx of population from elsewhere. (To make a point - what is the "local food" of San Francisco? :)

Having said that (and knowing that this just adds to the noise) - could we archive this talk page and get rid of the bile that is flowing around here (which is in no way representative of Belgaum)?

Achitnis 07:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I tried unsuccessfully diverting attention to make this article better. I have given up. I am not from Belgaum (so are most of the people editing this page). So I am not informed enough to make authoritative changes to this article. So please go ahead and cleanup this article. Delete all the irrelevant parts and keep only what Belgaum really represents. Leotolstoy 18:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)