Talk:Benny Beaver

Benny Logos

The "Smiling Benny" either needs to be replaced with the actual 1951 logo, or changed to mention that it is the alternate logo 2001-present. This version is the modern remake of the 1951 version and was debuted quietly alongside "Angry Benny." The original has many finer details and has a differently shaped nose.Ibleedorange14 (talk) 03:38, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I also just fixed the bit about the 1998-2013 logo. After corresponding directly with Michael Morrow, he informed me that he did NOT design this logo, only the interlocking "OS," so the source was referencing a logo not in this article, rather than the beaver logo suggested. Since I have no citable information, this is an email from No Dinx, the shop that designed the logo (the "new logo" referring to the Nike logo debuted on March 4, 2013):

March 12, 2013 10:38:24 AM PDT

[REDACTED] -

Hi! My name is [REDACTED], designer at No Dinx. According to my records, the logo that we designed was finalized in April of 1998. We did not work on the new logo. Hope this helps you out! Thanks -[REDACTED] ibleedorange14 (talk) 21:57, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Reverted content

I tried to add more citations and make some improvements to this article, but they were reverted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benny_Beaver&diff=175357513&oldid=174913146. I think the previous (and now current, since the reversion) version had a number of unsourced statements, such as:

• the comment about beavers being a "natural" for a civil engineering school sounds plausible, but wasn't it an agricultural school at the time it was chosen? That needs a source.
• the sources used (and I added another good one that was removed) say that Bulldog was not officially a school mascot
• I cited where the first Beaver mascot was used, but the reversion went back to saying there was no evidence anywhere
• There was a "Billy" mascot referred to in the original sources; I added that information but it was removed
• I don't think the first guy in the beaver suit will ever have a WP article
• The mascot change coming about due to donor input sounds plausible, but we need to cite something that proves it
• Please cite about the new beaver mascot costume scaring kids
• Trivia sections are discouraged
• I haven't seen the WP:MOS comment about inward facing logos, can you please provide a link?

This article needs some work and reverting good faith edits is not a way to get there. Let's work together on this. --Esprqii 00:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Billy Beaver

I do not have a source as I have only seen references in-person in the OSU Archives, but I added Billy (and his successor, Beavo) back into the article. If I could find these online and not just in a source more credible than the internet... I would source it.67.169.211.39 (talk) 07:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

After some further research, I also corrected the spelling of Bevo (it appears both, but the original announcement in the school newspaper uses "Bevo"), added appropriate years, and corrected the order of appearance. I also added a citation for Bevo, though it is not online.

Return of original

* the comment about beavers being a "natural" for a civil engineering school sounds plausible, but wasn't it an agricultural school at the time it was chosen? That needs a source. I will supply that if necessary... but I think most people recognize Oregon State as an engineering school and not so much as an agricultural school. Agricultural was a big program at one time, but engineering has always been central. Example: Thomas J. Autzen graduated from OSU in electrical engineering in the early 1900s.

* the sources used (and I added another good one that was removed) say that Bulldog was not officially a school mascot. I read where it was the "adopted" mascot. Official? I don't think there were too many "official" mascots at any universities in the 1800s. They just adopted them. Feel free to add another mascot if it is sourced. "Billy" was left out and can be added in if you like. --The university had official mascots dating back to 1892. The Bulldog was just a wrestling coach's pet and was thought of as a "team" mascot by a few teams, much like a class pet. It is worth an asterisk, but not more.67.169.211.39 (talk) 17:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

* I cited where the first Beaver mascot was used, but the reversion went back to saying there was no evidence anywhere Reread the original and current copy. I say no "documentation existed until the yearbook sighting. It's sourced as well. --November 9, 1908, the term "Beavers" is used three times in two articles in describing an athletic team in the school newspaper.67.169.211.39 (talk) 17:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

* I don't think the first guy in the beaver suit will ever have a WP article The first guy to ever where a beaver suit is a "Major" OSU donor. He recently remodeled Wetherford Hall and created the entrepreneur program, which operates within this building under his name. He will have a wiki... trust me! --He also runs a very successful company. He is almost worth his own page from his company alone.67.169.211.39 (talk) 17:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

* The mascot change coming about due to donor input sounds plausible, but we need to cite something that proves it That's fine... I can work on it... don't just remove it... Ask and you shall receive.

* Please cite about the new beaver mascot costume scaring kids This is something that is fairly common knowledge among Oregon State fans because, initially, the beaver costume looked just like the logo. It was quickly changed to the current... family friendly version used today. I think the Oregonian did a small blurb on it.. but not sure if it's source-able now????

* Trivia sections are discouraged Trivial information is discouraged (mainly for serious topics), but this is a page dedicated to a college mascot. Some trivial information is going to be acceptable.

* I haven't seen the WP:MOS comment about inward facing logos, can you please provide a link? Read the details of "Images" relating to profiles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Images AgntOrange —Preceding comment was added at 01:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. It sounds like we can work together on this. My main point was that "everybody knows that" type stuff is fine for an OSU wiki, but a lot of people who read this won't have the common knowledge that you (or I) might have. For example, you might want to mention that Austin is a major donor when you first make reference to him, so as to point out his notability. And provide a reference about OSU's civil engineering history. That kind of thing. Regarding the trivia, I say just go ahead and incorporate it rather than introduce it as trivia--like you say, most of it *is* trivia. I'm going to add some stuff back in when I have time but I'll add more detailed edit notes. Thanks. --Esprqii 01:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

For the most part... I believe I have provided the citation you wanted and responded to the questions you had. Let me know if you have more. Feel free to add in more facts. No major overhauls please... unless it comes with some "major" new contributions. Thank you AgntOrange 03:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

As before, any changes I make will be fully cited. There are still some citations missing from this article. Please don't forget about WP:OWN. --Esprqii (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The request to site these items will take time... Have patience. Although these facts are well known.... they were probably not well documented. It will take some research time... AgntOrange (talk) 15:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

New Layout and Historical Connection Section Added

I have added a new section and reformatted picture locations to match text. The new section (Historical Connection) helps explain why Benny Beaver was selected as the mascot of OSU. Please do not revert to old version. Add only facts to build on current page. Reversions will be reported as vandalism. I recommend removing previous discussion information above since it is dated, requested references have been made and no longer relevant. AgntOrange (talk) 02:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The section detailing the fur trade in Oregon is not germain to the topic. The original article had sufficient reference to the importance of the beaver in Oregon's history. The inclusion of Lincoln's hat is just unrelated minutia. Everything related to beavers is not relevant to an article about a university mascot. I will be reverting this page, and invite you to report it to an administrator.--Edgewise (talk) 02:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Many individuals, outside of the Oregon, are unfamiliar with "why" and "how" OSU chose Benny Beaver as a mascot. Having a small section detailing the "historical connection" helps provide the necessary background to understand its relevance to the university and the state of Oregon. I will be reverting this page to include its newly added section. I find it odd that you are taking such hostile action against the addition of this section, well before it has had time to be properly reviewed. AgntOrange (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

There was already adequate reference to the fur trade in Oregon to provide context for the selection of a beaver as the OSU mascot. Adding minute detail about the history of the fur trade is just unnecessary in an article about a university mascot.

The addition of a picture of Abraham Lincoln (presumably because he wore a beaver hat) illustrates my point. Throwing in everything you can find about beavers does not add information, it conceals it in unnecessary, extraneous verbage that does not illuminate the topic.

Please do not engage in an edit war to defend the indefensible. Though your edits were made in good faith, they are damaging an otherwise informative article, and should be reverted. --Edgewise (talk) 14:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Major changes that affect a stable article should be discussed on the talk page. Please feel free to do so here. While some additional detail about AgntOrange's changes may enhance this article, and while some good sourced information is provided, the central point about how "the beaver's central role in Oregon's history led students at OSU to adopt" the beaver is completely undocumented. This part would be really useful to the article, if cited. As it is, it is just an assumption on the part of the editor. A reasonable assumption, but some cited history of how the beaver came to be chosen is really what this article is lacking. I suggest that most of the other research should be moved to the North American fur trade article, which could use some improvement.

There are some problems with the revised article structure, such as the removal of the lede section.

I'm also concerned that AgntOrange is asserting strong ownership of the article by insisting that his or her changes remain under threat of reporting as vandalism, and seems unwilling to discuss his or her changes. Let's discuss changes here before putting them in the article. --Esprqii (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with Esprqii. Namely, I think the crux of the issue is that the selection of the beaver as a mascot was simply due to it being the state animal at the time. All of this historical information added would be better off on a section of a page related to the selection of the beaver as Oregon's state animal, rather than why the OSU mascot is a beaver. Perhaps a section on the Oregon or fur trade page would be more appropriate. VegaDark (talk) 19:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The OSU athletic site indicates that the Beaver was chosen because (1) it was the state animal; (2) the school yearbook had that name; and [3) the press pushed the change. But as VegaDark points out, all this is irrelevant to an article which is supposed to describe one specific mascot, Benny. Ideally, all the general mascot section should go in the Oregon State Beavers article and leave this one to deal only with Benny. For an imperfect example on that, see Stanford Cardinal, which has a mascot section dealing with the history of all Stanford's mascots, and the Stanford Tree describes only that mascot. --Esprqii (talk) 23:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course, I disagree with the removal of the new section and complete revisions and would like to wait for some outside input rather than the same individuals who seem to have a turn and burn attitude here. I am just now, 9 hours after posting my changes, getting an opportunity to respond to these comments and I already see it has been reverted with little or no true discussion in a "very" short time. Let's give this some time to develop rather than just saying it doesn't meet criteria. New additions should be left for others to review for at least six months before removed not 9 hours.AgntOrange (talk) 23:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

That's not the way it works. Changes that are disputed are to be discussed on the talk page before just forcing discussion on the changes you want. You probably want to read up on WP:3RR. --Esprqii (talk) 23:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see either of the two individuals commenting here as a consensus, since both you and VegaDark seem to comment as a team on these issues, summarily take action without much input from others. 6 months is a good length to get some outside feedback.AgntOrange (talk) 23:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is some outside feedback... 1) This article is about Benny Beaver, not the Beavers. Benny was established in 1945 because of the previous use of the Beaver in the school history, not because of historical beaver involvement in the state of Oregon. This historical section is not DIRECTLY related to Benny, but rather it is INDIRECTLY related. While it is appropriate to include reference to early use of "Beavers" in OSC history, it is not appropriate to go one more topic removed in this lineage, except for at most a minor mention. 2) The OSU AD website is not the end-all on this topic... it was likely written by an intern, I am guessing, based on several inaccuracies. For example, "Beavers" has nothing to do with the state animal or the yearbooks-- the state animal was chosen in 1969, well after the Beavers was a term used. Furthermore, the yearbooks use of "Beavers" as a title began in 1916, however the 1912 yearbook (published actually in 1911) has a picture of a Beaver in its title page with the caption "our mascot," and the school's athletic teams are referred to as "The Beavers" in two 1908 Barometer articles, in a context which implies that the term was already established, well before any mention from the yearbooks. So... in short, not only does this historical work have no direct correlation to Benny, but some of the above justification is outright false. ibleedorange14 (talk) 07:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I just removed it. As stated and implied several times above, the content was off-topic. This is a page about Benny Beaver, not the school's athletic nickname. (If it was about the nickname, there would be considerably more content related to the Hayseeds, Aggies, Farmers, Orangement. If about OSU's other mascots, there would be considerably more content related to Jimmy, Rev. Bell, the Beaver Statue, Billy, Bevo, a third live beaver (the name escapes me at the moment), and Benny I (Statue). It is not... this is about Benny. There is nothing in Benny's history (especially nothing in this article or in the deleted history section) that even suggests that fur trading had anything to do with Benny becoming the mascot. It may have caused the beaver to be the state animal, and that MAY have influenced the school's athletic nickname, which in turn influenced Benny, but that train of thought is too long, and starts with 100% pure speculation, with zero documentation suggesting it. Historical documents go only so far as to say that the student body liked the beaver in relation to the school, nothing about why. 67.5.167.92 (talk) 04:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, as pointed out earlier, it is also worth noting the state animal was created decades after "Beavers" earned wide usage at OSU. Thus, the ONLY link between fur trading and OSU's mascot is pure speculation that fur trading may have played a small part in why students liked the animal.67.5.167.92 (talk) 04:46, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed citation

"In 2001 the Benny Beaver costume changed to match the new logo, but was not well accepted by younger fans." was cited by: http://oregondigital.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?REC=15&CISOPTR=1436&CISOROOT=/archives

The source does not provide evidence that the change was in 2001, was to match the new logo, or was not accepted by younger fans, even if much of that is common knowledge information. Furthermore, the picture is in clear copyright violation. The original source of the image clearly states: "Permission to use must be obtained from the OSU Archives." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.193.162.56 (talk) 02:27, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've restored the citation as it shows what the costume looked like in 2001, which would be useful for our readers. Feel free to remove the information or use {{fact}} tags on the parts that need citation. As far as the copyright, linking to the page isn't actually using the image. If they didn't want the image available on the Internet, OSU wouldn't have put it on the Internet. There is nothing on the page saying "please don't link here". In other words, we don't need permission to use the image because we are not using the image. And we do not need permission to link to the page that contains the image. I hope this explains. Valfontis (talk) 03:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Lists of Past Bennys

Would it be appropriate to include a list of people confirmed to have portrayed Benny, and any known years? If citations are needed, are print sources acceptable, or do they have to be online only?67.5.167.92 (talk) 04:51, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

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