Talk:Berar sultanate

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Requested move 5 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 15:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

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Berar Sultanate → Imad Shahi dynasty – Berar Sultanate is more likely a fabricated PoV name, even Ngram is not available for Berar Sultanate [1]. Commonname per reliable publishers, and more appropriate to name for a Dynasty. Imperial^[AFCND] 13:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Toadette^Edit! 15:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Maharashtra, Noticeboard for India-related topics, and WikiProject Former countries have been notified of this discussion. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 05:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Adil Shahi dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 20 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ToadetteEdit (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

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Berar Sultanate → Berar sultanate – Capitalization is not necessary. When I search for "Berar Sultanate" on Google Books, I find 6 of the first 10 hits user lowercase sultanate. Per the criteria at MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, we should not cap things that are not mostly capped in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 06:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• Note – "Imad Shahi sultanate" also most commonly uses lowercase sultanate. Dicklyon (talk) 06:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Dicklyon, WP:NCCAPS doesn't apply here as it is a proper noun in this case. Also, "Berar Sultanate" is WP:CONSISTENT with other similarly named articles. PadFoot (talk) 11:31, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  NCCAPS says "For multiword page titles, one should leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper name that would always occur capitalized, even mid-sentence." (my bold). It applies. And yes, now that you point it out, there are many others with the same problem. I'll do a multi-RM next, whether this one passes or not. Dicklyon (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support - see below comment. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Oppose per Padfoot's reasoning. This is a proper noun, and every single former country that I know of with Sultanate in the name has the "S" capitalized, whether some sources don't or not. This is a consistency issue, not entirely a what-sources-say issue. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 13:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose capitalisation is consistent with other articles Kowal2701 (talk) 12:22, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support—It's not a proper name, like Berar cabinet, Berar government, the king's reign. Tony (talk) 00:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Not consistently capitalized in sources. PadFood2008, Flemmish Nietzsche, and Kowal2701 all seem to be severely confused. See MOS:CAPS: only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia (emphasis in original). It is not possible (per WP:NOR policy) for random editors to invent in their own heads a decision that something "is" a proper noun when reliable sources do not consistently treat it as one (see also WP:PNPN for sources of much of the confusion about what "proper name" means, in general and as applied at Wikipedia in particular). It is not possible for "every single former country that I know of with Sultanate in the name has the 'S' capitalized" to be true and for "some sources don't [capitalize] or not" to also apply simultaneously; that's simply self-contradictory; it is the very fact of near-total RS capitalization that determines that something is capitalized, in the first place. F.N. appears to mean something like "sources that I like capitalize, and I simply ignore those that don't". Nor is "that I know of" any kind of determining factor of any kind on Wikipedia (cf. against WP:NOR as well as WP:IKNOWIT). "Not entirely a what-sources-say issue"? No, this kind of question is always and entirely a what-sources-say issue, by definition. It is never, ever, for any reason a what-I-prefer-or-imagine-is-the-truth-or-believe-would-be-best-in-my-personal-reality-tunnel question. Finally, the capitalization would not be "consistent with other articles". We lower-case territorial and regime designations that are not proper names, and we capitalize those that are. Lack of consitently capitalization in RS indicates that this is not one (which is often the case with English-language designations for non-English-speaking places, that consist of a proper name like "Berar" and a descriptive element like "sultanate"), so it would be consistent to lower-case it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:50, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

  I see your point. Sorry if I came off as sounding like "it should be capitalized because my favorite sources do it and they're always right!" — that was not the intention; obviously we adhere to what sources say here, but when initially replying, the thought of it not being a proper name seemed very outlandish at the time (my initial thinking of this RM was that this is a similar request to asking to change "Roman Empire" to "Roman empire" or "Delhi Sultanate" to "Delhi sultanate", etc.) and I didn't treat Dicklyon's proposal as very sensical. But after doing a quick google scholar search you're definitely right that this isn't a proper name, mostly because "Berar sultanate" is a historiographical term applied to a region rather than a dynasty or city, in which case it almost certainly would be capitalized. I'll change my !vote to Support. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 16:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment: @Dicklyon I think Berar here is the only uncapitalization for a Sultanate (or any polity for that matter) you could get away with; Berar, as I said in my comment, is a special case here, and trying to decapitalize something like, for example Delhi Sultanate or Bahmani Sultanate just wouldn't make sense, as in general capitalization is the common practice, just not with Berar; there are always going to be some sources that don't capitalize any territorial entity, be it the Roman Empire, Vijayanagara Empire, Delhi Sultanate, Kingdom of France ("k"), etc. but those are all capitalized in their articles, because the prevailing style, both in sources and on Wikipedia, is that they are proper names. I think the reason you found such a result when investigating the common capitalization of Berar Sultanate, and one of the reasons this RM is succeeding, is that there is no ngram for either capitalizations of the name, but for major Sultanates there is, and capitalization is the common style. I'm not saying I'm objecting to move this page, I'm just giving you a heads up if you attempt to do a mass-RM of Sultanate articles or other polities.

Before you come at me telling me all about how "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia", just remember that there are always going to be some sources (not saying those sources are bad or that sources that do capitalize are any better, SMcCandlish) that don't capitalize, but that doesn't always mean we have to default to non-capitalization. You're looking at a mass-RM for ~100 pages of the "foo Sultanate" style which is frankly unnecessary and somewhat disruptive, taking into account your past history with capitalization title changes, and would set an ugly precedent which may expand to all "foo Empire" and regime designation pages in general. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 22:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

None of the n-gram graphs show the kind of "consistent capitalization" associated with proper names. Some are pretty close to half-and-half (here's another), and the n-grams tend to over-count the capped cases because those are what are usually found in tables, lists, running heads, and citation titles. Dicklyon (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Lowercasing 'sultanate' in the title would be more consistent with how it's usually written. Waqar💬 20:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.