Talk:Berkhamsted/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:49, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I will take a look at this page and make straightforward copyedits as I go (please revert if I inadvertently change the meaning), and jot down questions below: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:49, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

There are alot of "Berkhamsted"s in the first para of the 1066 and the Domesday survey section.

Very happy to change at least a couple, shall I wait until I think you have paused. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 12:30, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I am in Australian time so I started this just before going to bed. Am up now with caffeine...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:17, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Short delay: I am in the UK, Berkhamsted (Berko) is my home town, but I live in Bristol. Unfortunately my mothers super carer has had an accident on Thursday, so I will now caring for my lovely but demanding 91 year old mum for the next 11 days. So I will have less free time than I hoped. I only have a small screen and a small awkward set up here, which is hard to work on and gives me headaches. However tomorrow I am getting a big screen which will help me work and fulfill your recommendations. So I will mostly start tomorrow.

I was very pleasantly surprised that you kindly picked up the article for this GA process so quickly (I was expecting a month). Now you have kindly started the support process I realize that I have a lot of hard work to do to improve the article. I hope I am up for the challenge. 90% of my original research was via the internet. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 21:30, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I am going to divide your recommendations up to make things clearer for me, i hope you dont mind. I might also reply to them out of order. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 21:30, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Ok all good - I am happy for you to take your time and feel confident you've given it a good shot. I've left many reviews open for much longer than seven days if things are moving. Also, to differentiate text, you can do.........(drumroll)........this!! (said in best Kenny Everett voice). I generally do this in stuff I have written and am having reviewed - see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Australasian gannet/archive1 for example. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:25, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

1

The royal castle's presence clearly affected the town. - you can remove this sentence without losing meaning as you write what the effect is in the next few sentences

....patronage from the royal court connected to the castle helped fuel the town's growth, prosperity and sense of importance. - growth and prosperity I get...but "sense of importance"??

^{Initial reply. The close inter-relationship and affect of the castle on the town's development was a big issue for me, so I wanted to stress it (I was at the time of editing was debating with another editor concerning the relevance of the castle's huge effect on the town).}

^{Done. Combined and reworded these two sentences, but added link to the Middle Ages which seems appropriate. At the moment i have kept 'sense of importance', this came direct from the source and i feel a town or city's population can have pride in their locality. ~ BOD ~ TALK 23:31, 26 January 2019 (UTC)}

2

In 1155–65, Henry II's favourite, Thomas Becket, was given Berkhamsted. - does this mean some time between 1155 and 1165?

^{He held the castle from 1155 to 1165 ~ BOD ~ TALK 21:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)}

3

why is "Hero of Berkhamsted" introduced at second not first mention of the Black Prince...and (more interestingly) what is the basis of the nickname?

^{I am not sure where the "Hero of Berkhamsted" comes from, the Black Prince seems to have always been the most famous or popular resident but the epitaph does sound like 19th century puff. So I will remove it, until I can find a good source to better support its mention in the article. (scared to go big now lol) ~ BOD ~ TALK 10:56, 27 January 2019 (UTC)}

Removed ~ BOD ~ TALK 11:34, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

4

In the first sentence of Medieval market town (12th to 15th centuries), "castle" is mentioned 3 times - can we reduce?

^{Yes, but at the time I was debating with someone who was saying the town was 'castle town' ie it grew up around the town, where in fact the town developed along the old roman road, so it was closely linked but detached.}

trimmed/reworded ~ BOD ~ TALK 22:38, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

5

The townscape was shaped by the Bulbourne valley, which rises 300 feet on either side at its narrowest point; the residential area is elongated and follows the valley's topography - should have metric conversion here too

^{metric measurement added ~ BOD ~ TALK 13:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)}

6

Am just realising how long the article is - there is possibly too much on castle and priory (given they have separate articles). Can any material be relegated to the daughter articles? e.g. like this? I have then undone it for discussion. Maybe trim or summarise some of the succession of castle owners....

^{I must admit I really want to resist too much chopping off here. I strongly believe that the very close presence of all the important figures and retinues in the castle had a huge affect on many levels on the medieval town, that was less than 1/4 mile away. So I think they should be included in this article about the town. The article is long, because the town is blessed with this extra element of history (plus an editor with Obsessive Tenancies contributed to it:) ). Even if the article fails to reach Good Article status, personally I am happy that is being improved by this process (and requests and further corrections by other editors). ~ BOD ~ TALK 17:25, 28 January 2019 (UTC) reworded. ~ BOD ~ TALK 11:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)}

7

In some location articles, the Places adjacent to X diagram ends up in the infobox, which I think would be a better place.

^{I have not seen, but I would be happy to make to copy this suggested layout.bod to do ~ BOD ~ TALK 21:51, 26 January 2019 (UTC)}

^{Casliber ~ Can you give me an example of an article where this done, so I can steal/copy} ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 11:54, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, Chipping Norton, New South Wales is an example of what I mean. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:24, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

_{Thanks, looks good, 2 possible versions}

^{*(a) i can easily copy the one previously in the article and place it there (i.e. showing the nearest settlements including villages & hamlets)}

^{*(b)i could only put in the nearest towns or major settlements in each direction (which might be more familiar to some readers and give them a sense of location) ~ BOD ~ TALK 01:08, 15 February 2019 (UTC)}

^{Correction I do not think I can do this (at least I dont know how) ...the Template:Infobox UK place unlike the Template:Infobox Australian place does not have these near place parameters (heck I am not sure if parameters is the right word).} ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 13:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

8

It would be great if the Local villages segment was a concise paragraph of prose than a list somehow, discussing how close or far they are and what traffic/interest etc. there is...

^{Yes, this can be done, hopefully with not to much bod puffery bod to do ~ BOD ~ TALK 21:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)}

^{Prose version has replaced list and diagram, it might need improving ~ BOD ~ TALK 18:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC)}

9

Near-real-time weather information can be retrieved from Berkhamsted Weather Station on the Met Office Weather Observation Website - we don't link the word but need a cite. I am not sure this is needed in the article anyway.

Alright, I take it you want to keep it. Not hugely fussed, but if so, linke needs to be as a citation at end of sentence, not the word as linked now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:27, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry i actually forgot about this suggestion. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 01:08, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

^{Changed, hopefully as requested ~ BOD ~ TALK 13:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC)}

10

Berkhamsted School is an independent public school, with over 475 years of history - sentence sounds puffy and could be removed, given its founding date is in next sentence

Removed/ de-puffed ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 22:53, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

N1 Separate to requests related to this review... a number of useful requests for clarification were made recently, and have been answered. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 18:20, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

11 More later.

Ashridge Executive Education is 'a prestigious business school with a divine location', - similarly, should be removed

^{Definitely puffy, guilty as charged.} ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 21:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

^{Removed/ de-puffed ~ BOD ~ TALK 22:53, 26 January 2019 (UTC)}

12

You've mentioned in the lead that the high street is on a pre-Roman route, yet I can't find this in the body now and Akeman Street doesn't mention anything about pre-Roman existence....

^{a citation for the pre-Roman history of the road can be found [here] should i add a link to the Berko page or maybe update the Akeman page? ~ BOD ~ TALK 13:58, 15 February 2019 (UTC)}

Yes, both would be grand Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:05, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

^{Done, but I am not sure about the quality of my edits today ~ BOD ~ TALK 16:03, 15 February 2019 (UTC)}

13

Berkhamsted Castle is a well-documented example of an 11th-century motte-and-bailey Norman castle - why not just say "Berkhamsted Castle is a motte-and-bailey Norman castle, most likely buit after 1066"?

^{I have reworded much of the paragraph, having your suggested wording and the radio carbon evidence next to each other makes more sense. I see that I must have lifted the now removed 'well-documented example of a Norman castle with historical records dating from the 12th to the 15th century from here https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1010756 but not sure it adds anything. ~ BOD ~ TALK 22:53, 26 January 2019 (UTC)}

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail: - clearly a labour of love. prose could be tightened a little but good enough for GA-hood Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:44, 16 February 2019 (UTC)