Talk:Bernie Sanders/Archive 8

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Sanders is dubiously Jewish??

Why is Sanders' religion marked as dubious in the infobox? Have we all gone nutso here? Does he have to go live on TV and eat a bagel with cream cheese and lox to get your approval? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:49, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Because eating a bagel with lox is a religious statement how exactly?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:34, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Uhm, I will take this as a serious question, incase you didn't catch it. Sir Joseph was being sarcastic. Eating bagels with cream cheese and lox is a culturally traditional Jewish thing to do, at least in American Jewish circles. He was basically asking how loudly and public someone needs to be about their religion in order to proove it to people or get their approval. Centerone (talk) 18:58, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it is a culturally Jewish thing to do. It is however clearly not a Religiously Jewish thing to do. Which is what is being discussed and which some people here insist on not distinguishing between. Cultural and ethnic Jews presumably do not stop eating bagels with lox spread if they convert to Christianity or buddhism, making the "sarcastic" question both irrelevant and demonstrating the mistaken nature of Sir Josephs conception about the question being discussed.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:00, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

But the point is... how do you PROVE your religious belief to another person? What do the people who are arguing he 'isn't jewish' want? Does he have to grow a beard and payot? Put on a funny little hat? Put on tefillin? Drop his pants and show he's cut? Be seen davening at the western wall? Only attend and hold membership at a specific synagogue, temple, or shul? How religious does he need to be? Is he not Jewish enough if he only prays to G-d on occasion? Is he not Jewish enough if the one religious book in his house is gathering dust? Is he not Jewish enough if his upbringing simply informs and molds who he is as a person and how he acts and behaves? As I posted previously, WITH a link, even Orthodox Jews consider non-practicing Jews to still be Jewish. Heck, Obama attends church, celebrates the Christian holidays, and has openly and repeatedly stated he is Christian and yet STILL some people believe he's a Muslim. There is no satisfying people who think this way and there is no way to prove it NOR should anybody need to. While it may be necessary in other religions, it's simply not in Judaism. Centerone (talk) 06:07, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Re: "What do the people who are arguing he 'isn't jewish' want?" Name one. Go ahead. Name a single person anywhere on this page who ever even hinted that Bernie Sanders is not jewish. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Name a single person on this page who even hinted that he is not Jewish?? YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY BE SERIOUS. You do. Repeatedly, and often try to claim he has no religion, when he has most clearly stated he does: he is spiritual, he believes in God, when he was raised in the religion, when he went through the coming of age rituals, when it informs his behaviour and beliefs. When we have plenty of references from reliable sources. I don't know what your issue is, but people have repeatedly tried to explain this to you. Yet you keep insisting he has no religion. You don't understand how Jews frame their identity, how they think about their religion, how they think about the practice of their religion, how they think about themselves when they are not as adherent to one practice or another, how those who are very adherent think about those who aren't adherent to the practices, how it's even reinforced in the religion and dates back ages to question these things, to view things from multiple viewpoints, to challenge oneself and one's belief. It is clearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you as others have clearly stated you don't want to listen to any of the information, examples, and references presented. Centerone (talk) 05:31, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Evasion noted. You have failed to name a single person on this page who even hinted that he is not Jewish, instead naming one of the many people who have pointed out that he is a Jew who is not a member of any religion. Please Google "Who is a Jew?" and read one of the high-quality references -- many by by Jewish organizations -- explaining the difference between Jewish culture, Jewish ethnicity, and Judaism the religion. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Now you're just projecting. Evasion? Did you seriously think in my quote above I was talking about cultural or ethnic judaism? You DON'T understand this and I fail to see why you refuse to try to comprehend what people are telling you, repeatedly. What is YOUR definition of being a member of a religion? [Note, that's irrelevant, but for point of discussion perhaps it is something you should think about and try to articulate.] As we've tried to point out several times, what those arguing that he doesn't practice Judaism are simply misunderstanding is how people in the religion view the practice of the religion, and even what some of the texts say. You don't need to be a member of any synagogue, temple, or shul to be a Jew religiously, you don't need to practice any particular rituals, etc.. I don't know why that needs to be repeated. You suggest that I look up one of these references, but you have clearly failed to make any attempt to do this yourself, or if you have you have simply misunderstood what you read or found bad references. I myself posted one of these references several times already. Here it is again: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/45132/jewish/What-Makes-a-Jew-Jewish.htm I keep thinking that I should quote some lines from it, but there are *SO MANY*. Let me try just to quote a few: "Can one still be Jewish without observing the edicts and ethos of Torah in one's daily life? Answer: Jews defy all conventional definitions of a "people" or "nation." We lack a common race, culture or historical experience." "Throughout our 3300-year history, what has defined us as Jews is a relationship and commitment. We are Jews because G‑d chose us to be" "This would seem to define our Jewishness as a "religion": we are Jews because we adhere to the beliefs and practices mandated by the Torah. But the Torah itself says that this is not so." "In the words of the Talmud (Sanhedrin 44a), "A Jew, although he has transgressed, is a Jew." 'Nuff Said. Centerone (talk) 13:26, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and BTW, it *wasn't* a sarcastic QUESTION. It was a serious question with a sarcastic RESPONSE to the absurd situation and potentially offensive and definitely non-neutral claim of "dubious"-ness of his religion.Centerone (talk) 06:11, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

I reverted that WP:BLP violation. Some chochom forgot that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and we should put our readers first. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:24, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you.Kerdooskis (talk) 18:30, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph:, I tagged it because of the ongoing RfC discussion above. Putting our readers first, @Malik Shabazz:, also means getting their input when a matter is under contention. Talk pages are not the Holy of Holies, and it shouldn't be considered a WP:BLP violation to invite readers into the discussion. Is there a better tag I could have used? -- Kendrick7^talk 04:25, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, Kendrick7, if you wanted to inform readers that the issue was under discussion you could have used {{under discussion inline}}. Do you really think it's "dubious" (i.e., questionable or open to suspicion) whether Sanders is Jewish? The template's documentation says "Add {{Dubious}} after a specific statement or alleged fact which is sourced but which nevertheless seems dubious or unlikely." Putting the word "dubious" next to a person's self-proclaimed religion is a BLP violation.

Why don't you try it at Donald J. Trump, someone whose self-proclaimed religion is widely regarded as dubious? Oh, I forgot. Wikipedia only has a double standard when it comes to Jews. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 07:49, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Malik. I suspected that there was a better tag out there, but to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time keeping too many of them in my head at one time (if you notice, I even used the wrong tag, which isn't an inline tag, {{disputed}}, to begin with[1]). I'm 100% on your side here.[2] Hands up, don't WP:SHOOT! -- Kendrick7^talk 13:16, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Surname

"Sanders" is an English surname, deriving from the French word for sandalwood. His family emigrated from Poland. Was his paternal family English expatriates living in Poland, or was the family name changed at some point? If the latter is the case, wouldn't the inclusion of the original family name be notable for inclusion in the paragraph on his family origin? fishhead64 (talk) 15:40, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

They were not English expatriates. It is probably a good guess that his father's last name while living in Poland was not "Sanders" but I looked around the Internet and see nothing on this one way or the other. Neutron (talk) 00:10, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

According to this genealogy site, Eli Sanders' original name was Eliasz Sander. Gaius Solstius (talk) 05:22, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Position on the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act?

Since the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act has come up as a campaign issue, should the position Sanders took on it while in Congress be mentioned in that section? bd2412 T 19:50, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Participation in religious ceremonies

I've added a little bit of detail regarding participation in three Jewish ceremonies.[3] I think this brief addition will clarify things, because the cited source does not suggest that he participates in the three ceremonies on a regular basis.Anythingyouwant (talk) 08:06, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

if the cited source actually clarifies this, I think it's a fine idea. -- Kendrick7^talk 08:52, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Anythingyouwant—here is a question for you to ponder. How can Bernie Sanders participate in these religious functions if his religion is not Jewish? Why are you arguing for the removal of the "Jewish" designation from the Infobox when you are making edits, such as this one, which presuppose that Bernie Sanders is a member of the Jewish religion? Do you think he participates in Tashlikh, Yahrzeit, and Hannukah as a non-Jew? "Rabbi Joshua Chasan, the rabbi emeritus of Burlington’s Conservative synagogue, Ohavi Zedek, who has known Mr. Sanders since he was Burlington’s mayor, said Mr. Sanders 'does not have to wear his Judaism on his sleeve in Vermont or anywhere else to be a Jew.'"[4] Bus stop (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

For the same reason someone like myself participates in Catholic funerals, though not a Catholic, indeed a known pagan. If a Catholic acquaintance dies, I attend the funeral. I am godfather to a girl, now a woman, from the moment of her baptism, where I undertook to ensure that I would look after her spiritual welfare, and be available whenever circumstances dictated the need of a helping presence. The girl's father was an atheist, raised a Catholic; her mother an Oriental who converted nominally. If my monkish com-panions in a nearby community invite me to dine as their guest, aand call on me, after the ritual prayer of grace has been said, (during which I remain silent) to bless the occasion with the Hebrew benediction, I do so. They like to be reminded of their deeper religious affinities. None of this makes me a Catholic, or a Protestant or a Jew. In the modern world, fellowship does not ply the worry beads over possible implications in the otherwise sympathetic courtesies of ritual respect and observance (as it once, noxiously, did).Nishidani (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

We are not discussing a Nishidani article, are we? Your comments are irrelevant. You've brought no sources. Furthermore this is not a forum for the gratuitous expression of your opinions. You are out of place expressing that "In the modern world, fellowship does not ply the worry beads over possible implications in the otherwise sympathetic courtesies of ritual respect and observance (as it once, noxiously, did)."[5] Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions. Bus stop (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

He responded to your original research with original research. Regardless, you've made your position on this issue absolutely clear - consensus is against it. In time or with sufficient new sources consensus may change. Until then, no sense rehashing it. D.Creish (talk) 19:24, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

My original research? What don't you understand about the sourced statement that "Rabbi Joshua Chasan, the rabbi emeritus of Burlington’s Conservative synagogue, Ohavi Zedek, who has known Mr. Sanders since he was Burlington’s mayor, said Mr. Sanders 'does not have to wear his Judaism on his sleeve in Vermont or anywhere else to be a Jew'"? Clearly Sanders' religion is Jewish. This is sourced multiple times. Bus stop (talk) 19:41, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

When others opinionize, regarding the interpretation of sources, I comment, with my opinion. Your attempt to try to single me out as a soap-boxer expresses personal animus, not equanimity. As I said earlier, identity is one's own business, and no external sources, even from friends, are relevant to what a living person is. The only thing that counts is an explicit testimony from the subject. The rest is silence (that's a quote, not my opinion).Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Bus stop, count how many responses you have posted. Count how many of them repeat -- often word-for-word -- arguments that did not change anyone's mind the last three time you posted them. Post the totals, then try to tell us with a straight face that you honestly don't believe you are soapboxing. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Can someone please revert the last edit? Sanders hasn't died...

The sidebar says: Died February 25, 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.125.14.77 (talk) 23:40, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Sanders criticized Uber, but his campaign used it for 100% of its taxi rides

I recently added the following to the "Political positions" section of the article:

After Sanders criticized Uber for not having the same government regulations and employee benefits as regular taxi companies, conservatives accused Sanders of hypocrisy, pointing to public campaign records which showed that his campaign actually used Uber for 100% of its taxi rides.

References

User:C.J. Griffin deleted it, and commented, "This is a broad overview of his positions, therefore undue weight is given to this Uber controversy, and from a highly questionable source I might add..."

Since the article already has numerous mentions about Sanders' claim to care about workers' well being, I think this hypocrisy on his part is highly notable, and should be included in the article. Otherwise, the article is just a puff piece for Sanders, which is against Wikipedia:NPOV.

What do other editors think about including or not including this information in the article?

Unbreakable 427 (talk) 21:18, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

If anything, I think it should be included in his presidential campaign article, or at least his political positions page. It just feels like it would be kind out out of place in here. But for that matter, is his use of the free market hypocritical to the point that it should be included - I mean, he's criticized Comcast, Verizon, etc for overcharging their customer, but it's more than likely he's still using them because they're the "best" available. Grammarxxx ^{(What'd I do this time?)} 21:53, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

I checked both of those cited sources, neither of which gave substantive explanations of a political position(s) of Sanders. What information about Sanders' policy positions were you hoping to convey to readers? All I saw was that Sanders reportedly made some criticisms of Uber, and his campaign used Uber. I didn't even see an actual "accusation of hypocrisy". I'm guessing the other editor was referring to the American Spectator opinion piece as questionable (it's definitely not a reliable source for assertions of fact). On behalf of people who criticize pollution and lax EPA regulations, yet still drive cars to work; on behalf of people who criticize WalMart labor practices, yet still shop; on behalf of residents of Flint, Michigan who criticize lax water safety regulations, yet still take showers — I'm not seeing how your proposed sentence improves that section of the article on Sanders' politics. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

It's to show he's a hypocrite, I guess? Political opinions aside, it doesn't come off as encyclopedic and doesn't seem to have much relevance. Buffaboy ^talk 05:04, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

You would need to show that these views had obtained traction in mainstream sources. TFD (talk) 02:42, 26 February 2016 (UTC)