Talk:Bert Combs

Bot-created subpage

A temporary subpage at User:Polbot/fjc/Bertram Thomas Combs was automatically created by a perl script, based on this article at the Biographical Directory of Federal Judges. The subpage should either be merged into this article, or moved and disambiguated. Polbot (talk) 17:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Copyediting questions

I'm copyediting the article and will post questions and comments here as I come across them.

• "one of seven children born to Stephen Gibson and Martha (Jones) Combs": two notes on this. First, were his parents married? If not, then I'd suggest noting it; if so, why was his father not named Combs? Second, if there's more detail on the other children it would be nice to concisely add that context: e.g. "the fourth child and second son born to [etc.]".

• His parents were married. Gibson is his father's middle name. I've used this style of denoting parents in every Kentucky governor article, but only recently started getting comments about it (this one and one other). I believe this style is used in Harrison's Kentucky's Governors. Is there something more standard that I should be using? Regarding birth order, etc., I always include that information if it is available. That said, I haven't consulted The Public Papers of Bert T. Combs or Bert Combs: An Oral History. I was concerned about the latter being a primary source, but for something like this, that might be acceptable. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

  I checked a few FAs; here's what I found.

  • James Bowie: parents are "Elve Ap-Catesby Jones and Rezin Bowie". I can't even tell which is the father from that; I think Rezin must be the father and Elve the mother; "Jones" must be her maiden name.
  • Stede Bonnet: "Edward and Sarah Bonnet". Easy to interpret because there's no middle name for the father.
  • Anne Frank: "Otto Frank (1889–1980) and Edith Frank-Holländer (1900–45)". Father's name first, with the surname; wife's name looks like it's a post-marriage hyphenation, which makes it a less good example as it had to be given fully because of the unusual form.
  • Elias Ashmole: "His mother, Anne, was the daughter of .... His father, Simon Ashmole (1589–1634), was a saddler ...." Solves the problem by splitting the names.
  • Rosa Parks: "James McCauley and Leona Edwards". She was born Rosa McCauley.
  • John W. Johnston: "Dr. John Warfield Johnston and Louisa Smith Bowen". Father's last name given; mother's maiden name.
  • Robert Falcon Scott: "John Edward and Hannah (née Cuming) Scott". This is your style, with the addition of "née".

  This is so varied that I don't think I can draw any conclusions about standard approaches. I think I would personally prefer "Martha Jones and Stephen Gibson Combs", but I can't point to a precedent here. I think "Stephen Gibson Combs and Martha Jones" would also be an improvement. If you want to keep it as is, I'd suggest at least adding "née" in the parentheses, just as an aid to the reader, though that wasn't what confused me. Mike Christie (talk) 00:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• The schooling dates would be nice to have because he graduated early, so one wonders which years were skipped, and also because a reader like myself will wonder if the current elementary/middle/high school system was in place back then. Which years did he attend the Oneida Baptist Institute? How long was he at the high school? If he graduated at age 15, what did he do in the three years before he attended college in 1929?

• At that time in eastern Kentucky, there's no telling what kind of school system was in place. Some of the sources say that Combs' (and also Judge Ray Corns') experience in the eastern Kentucky school system motivated their actions in the lawsuit that overturned the state school system. Again, perhaps specific dates are available in the sources I haven't yet consulted, but I haven't found them so far. I'm big on including dates where possible if only to keep myself oriented within the life of the subject! Of the three-year gap between his high school graduation and entrance to college, I found this in the Herald-Leader article: "Times were hard, the Combs family was poor and Mr. Combs had to finance his education by working odd jobs." Unfortunately, there is no elaboration. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

  Well, if you find more information, we can see if it will allow a smoother flow of the text. Here's an attempted rewrite just with the material you have so far. I tried to make it flow a bit more; let me know what you think of this:

  Bert's first school was the two-room Beech Creek grade school, where he spent six years; he subsequently attended Oneida Baptist Institute in nearby Oneida, Kentucky, and then Clay County High School. He and his sister rode a donkey to the high school every day. He graduated early, at age 15, as valedictorian of his class, but it was not until 1929, three years later, that he enrolled in Cumberland College (then a junior college) in Williamsburg, Kentucky. He remained at Cumberland for two years, financing his education by sweeping floors and firing furnaces in campus buildings.

  In rewriting this it struck me that perhaps the Oneida Baptist Institute was after the high school -- what do you think? That would make sense of the three year gap - perhaps the sequence was Beech Creek, then Clay County High, then Oneida till he was old enough to go to college. OBI has a website; they might be able to give his dates of attendance, if possible citing an old yearbook that could be quoted as a source. If you like, I'll email them and see what they say. But can you tell the sequence of schools from your sources? That would settle it (if the sources themselves aren't confused.) Mike Christie (talk) 00:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

  Update: I just took another look at the early pages of the Oral History and Combs explains the whole sequence. See my other note below on this; I really think using the Oral History as a source will help a lot. Mike Christie (talk) 01:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• I saw the discussion at FAC about the citation approach you're using. I agree with you that everything might as well be cited, but I do find it distracting to have multiple consecutive sentences cited to the same source. Still, not a FAC requirement, so up to you -- just thought I'd throw in an opinion since I'm going through the article.

• Thanks for your opinion. I really think citation guidelines on Wikipedia need to be tightened up some. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• The article on the Order of the Coif says that for participating schools, the top ten percent of graduating law students get in -- this is certainly an indication that he did well, but I think the current phrasing -- "the highest honor given a law graduate" -- is a bit too strong. How about "He gained his Bachelor of Law degree in 1937, graduating second in his class,[4] and qualifying for the Order of the Coif, a national honor society for the top ten percent of graduating law students.[3]"

• That's a good suggestion. The current wording is lifted from the source, but what you have composed is more specific. Done.

• "Combs started a class for individuals with mental retardation in Floyd County": this must have been in Prestonsburg, both because Manchester is in Clay County, and because if they move before the boy is a year old then it can't have been a class in Manchester. However, the sequence as presented is confusing to the reader, who hasn't yet heard about Prestonsburg. Just making it "later started" would help. I will think about ways to rephrase this, but let me know if I have misunderstood the sequence.

• Also a good suggestion. This is one of those details you miss when you get too close to the subject and prose of the article. Changed.

• I just noticed that his daughter's name is given as Lois Combs Weinberg; presumably this is her married name. That's very confusing for the reader -- I think her name should be given as just Lois Combs, unless I've misunderstood, and the reference to her at the end of the article could then be adjusted if necessary.

• Yes, Weinberg is her married name. I've made some adjustments to the article to indicate that. Since much of my Wikipedia work is about pre-1920 Kentucky, I'm still learning how to deal with the nuances of female name changes in articles. Governor Martha Layne Collins was a new experience for me, to be sure. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• The paragraph about the sequence of positions he held in the army is somewhat disjointed. None of the roles are definitely stated to be consecutive, which could be the problem -- if we know this is all his jobs during the war it could be rewritten to flow better. Can you let me know whether there were intervening posts that aren't mentioned?

• As far as I know, there are no intervening posts. I tried to mention everything I could find about his military career, since he was decorated for it. As you can see, most of the details come from a work on the veterans of Clay County; this figures to be the most complete record of his service because of its tight focus. Even this source, which I've just discovered in the last week, doesn't give as much detail, although it does list some additional medals that I need to include. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

  The Oral History has a sequence sourced to Combs that describes how he considered volunteering, how he signed up, and what happened; I think it would help a lot to use it. I think it's OK because it's in an edited source -- i.e. it's not self-published. If you have doubts you could ask Ealdgyth, who does a lot of source reviews, or ask Sandy for another user who might give a reliable opinion. I wouldn't use it to assert the importance of what Combs has done, for example, but for simple facts about his life I think it's completely fine. Mike Christie (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• If I understand the medals correctly, both are for valour. Are any details available? The focus of his career is his politics, but the article is about the man, and the story of the medals would be good to include.

• Unfortunately, none that I've found. I just assumed that serving in a high rank under MacArthur would probably put you in line for some awards, but I know little to nothing about those awards. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

  This site (not a reliable source, of course) says Bronze Stars were awarded retroactively for all veterans, so that may be what happened with Combs. The Military Merit medal might be traceable, though the website listed at the link I just gave doesn't work. I think the right link is now this one. Might be worth it, particularly if, as you say, there are other medals that you've found out about too. Mike Christie (talk) 01:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to see a little more detail for the first two or three events in the Political Career section. It's a crowded sequence in a short time -- first election run, success, changing to Commonwealth's Attorney, then to judge, then having to run for election again, in something like eighteen months. We have two "Later ... " sentences in this timeframe: can the dates be pinned down a little more? And is there any background at all for Combs' original decision to move into electoral posts -- any comments from Combs in memoirs or interviews?
• I'd like to make the following change, but it introduces information I can't directly source, so I'm putting it here to see if you agree and can source it. Change 'Former Kentucky governor A.B. "Happy" Chandler, having become the leader of a faction of the state's Democratic Party, announced his intention to seek a second term in 1955' to 'A.B. "Happy" Chandler, who had been a popular governor of Kentucky from 1935 to 1939 before resigning to become a US senator, announced his intention to seek a second term in 1955, having become the leader of a faction of the state's Democratic Party.'
• I have access to the NY Times obit from 1991 and can send it to you if you like; it may help with some sourcing and, from glancing through it, appears to have some tidbits you might be able to add. [Striking that, as I just found it in your list of sources, and I see you've used it.] I can also look up other material in the NYT if it would be useful; e.g. I just found an article about the primary race with Wendell Ford. If you're interested, you can search nytimes.com and find the article abstracts and let me know what to retrieve.
• Some questions about the education paragraph in the "Governor of Kentucky" section. "Combs' proposed budget used money": presumably he proposed a budget each year, so I think this should be specific. Also, was the budget passed with the proposals intact? The article doesn't say, though it implies it.
• "The Automotive Safety Foundation found": can we get a date for this, or at least put "had found" to indicate it was prior to Combs' governorship, if it was?
• I don't quite follow the truck deal story. I assumed "favorable rate" meant a low price, but perhaps it means the reverse -- a price favorable to the seller. If so, I think that needs to be clarified.
• The "Governor of Kentucky" section is very long. Can it be split? The first two paragraphs are about the election; a subheading could be placed after those two, and perhaps another subheading further down. I'm having trouble seeing how to divide this section, unless a chronological split would work, but perhaps you can see a natural division in the subject matter.
• "the ire of author Harry M. Caudill": "author" isn't much of an attribution; some authors would not be worth quoting. I had a quick look at the article on Caudill; would your sources justify e.g. "local environmentalist and author", or "prominent Kentucky author", or something like that? A phrase like that would let the reader see why Caudill's opinion is notable.
• A picture of one of the statues would be a plus, if one can be found.
• A line or two about Rechtin would not be out of place -- I found a note (not in a reliable source) indicating that Rechtin was a building contractor.
• "During the trial, a new state superintendent was elected": I am not very familiar with the titles of the relevant posts, but I assume this means a schools superintendent?
• I think the Mountain Parkway was renamed for him after his death; can we add the date to the legacy section so the reader is clear on this? Same comment for the artificial lake.
• I noticed you don't have the date of the first marriage. I think it would be good to put the date in; Credo Reference gives it as June 15, 1937. If you don't have another source for that I can figure out the citation form for Credo.
• Near the end, two consecutive paragraphs end in almost identical ways: "Of X, Combs said". One of them should be reformulated: perhaps 'Combs later commented that'? The "Of X" part may not be necessary -- it's inferable from context.

I've left the lead to last, since it's easier to comment on it when I've absorbed the information in the body. Here are my thoughts on the lead.

• "Kentucky's Democratic Party had split into two factions by 1955 when Earle C. Clements, the leader of one faction, chose Combs to challenge A. B. "Happy" Chandler, the leader of the other faction, in the upcoming gubernatorial election": can we get at least a phrase to describe the factions? And wasn't it the primary that they competed in, not the gubernatorial election? Similarly, Combs beat Waterfield in the primary, not the main election, surely?
• The lead repeats itself a little; for comparison see J. C. W. Beckham's lead. Two of the facts given in the first short paragraph are repeated with a little more detail further down.

I'm going to stop there; I haven't done a MOS pass but didn't notice anything wrong as I went through. I'll post a note at the FAC. Mike Christie (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I've made some comments above. Out of time at the moment, but I'll get to the rest soon. Thanks for the thorough review. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Possible sources

You may have considered these, but here's what I found.

• Thomas Dionysius Clark, Margaret A. Lane: The people's house: governor's mansions of Kentucky. This seems to have some pictures of Combs from the University of Kentucky and the Kansas Historical Society; it might be possible to get permission to release these for Wikipedia use. There's a note about a hundred thousand people having gathered for his inauguration, and some odds and ends -- e.g. he apparently raised vegetables in the garden of the governor's residence.
• Ronald D. Eller: Uneven ground: Appalachia since 1945. This also seems to have some background info.

The problem with these books that don't focus on the subject specifically is that without a secondary source to place them in context it's hard to decide how much weight to give these anecdotes and factoids. Still, there might be something there.

With regard to the oral history, I think it would be worth looking through -- there may well be illustrative material there, or quotes, that you can drop into the article. If there are any quotes from well-known contemporaries of his those might be quite apposite. -- Mike Christie (talk) 00:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

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