Talk:Bettelmann

query about the Polish "Woina Wize"

In current day Polish the word for "war" is "wojna". However what is now written with a "j" used to be written with an "i". So far so good. However I couldn't sense of what "wize" is doing here. "visas" maybe? But then I don't think it would be grammatical. I did ask my wife, who is native Polish speaker, and she couldn't get it either.Slimy asparagus (talk) 06:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Slimy asparagus: I can't parse it either. Grammatically it could mean the "war of Vize" but it makes little sense 1) what is the source of this term? "Woina Wize" does not appear at all in my Google Books and Scholar search; and google just gives me Wikipedia mirrors 2) ping User:Nihil novi just in case. But I'd simply remove this "Polish term" as unattributed, a likely mistake with the low odds of being a hoax. Btw, War (card game) in Polish is pl:Wojna (gra karciana).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:23, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

it is interesting that this page was translated from the German page, but that page no longer exists. it seems to me that may be some pages can be merged. at best these games are variants of each other.Slimy asparagus (talk) 10:33, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Slimy asparagus: It wasn't translated from German Wikipedia. I created the article from scratch using the sources cited. I don't think merging it with Battle at this stage feels right. These are both European 32-card games, whereas Battle and War are Anglo-American 52-card games. The mechanics may be similar, but the culture and the history are not and I think it would add confusion because e.g. Bettelmann is not simply the German name for the game we call Battle. Now if we could find an historical link, it might make more sense to consider a merge depending on the relative size. Meanwhile the articles are well linked.

@Piotrus: To be fair, Gööck doesn't say it's the Polish name, he just gives it as an alternative (German) name, although it's clearly not German. Maybe it's from another eastern European language. Gööck was from the Baltic states... Bermicourt (talk) 11:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bermicourt: I am still confused: what is the source for the cited Polish name? Or that it was Polish? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:22, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I've just added the reference. Gööck's article is headed: "Bettelmann (Woina Wize)". It's just shown as an alternative name. Who knows where he got it from? However, looking back, I'm afraid I added the translation in brackets as "Polish" for "war" because that's what it seemed to be when I looked it up, but that appears to have been incorrect for which I apologise. Anyway the translation has been deleted until someone else can work out what it means in which language. Bermicourt (talk) 11:28, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I am afraid I cannot help more here, since as I said, the phrase seems to me more of an error than not. It wouldn't be the first time some otherwise reliable scholar incorrectly copied some scribblings, maybe the Polish word wojna for the similar game and then some other word that followed it. Pure speculation, but "widzę" in Polish mean to see, and I can imagine sentences in which the word "wojna" would be followed by "widzę" (or a bunch of similar words - wiążę (to connect), wieże (towers), etc.). Not knowing Polish, someone could have copied two words together, with this end result. Again, that's pure speculation, but given we have nothing else to with, I'd call this 'alternative name' highly suspicious. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:21, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I think we can forget any Polish connexion; that was my misunderstanding and has led us down a false trail.

What's curious is that Gööck is a generalist so he may have copied it from another source, but I can find no trace of the name elsewhere and I have a library of over 100 German sources going back into the 18th century. Which suggests a second possibility: he knew the game from his childhood in the Baltics where maybe it was called by that name. It's a children's game after all. "Woina" appears to be Russian for "war", which tallies. However, "Wize" only comes up as "visa" which makes no sense; perhaps it had another meaning back in the 1930s when Gööck was growing up. What we need is a Russian and/or Baltic languages expert with some historical/cultural knowledge. Meanwhile I've relegated the alternative name to a footnote. Bermicourt (talk) 12:34, 13 August 2021 (UTC)