Talk:Better Call Saul season 1/Archive 1

Archive 1

Too early

It seems to early for a standalone season article, as all it is just copy-and-pasted content from the Better Call Saul article and that article is nowhere near being have to split into separate articles. Once season 2 premiere, a List of Better Call Saul episodes article will be created to feature the episode tables, but separate seasons articles are are way too premature, unless significant expansion is planned on. This article should just be redirected to the Better Call Saul article as it's just duplicate content. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:03, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

There's no substance to this article, just cut-and-paste, and it's far too early to split. Let's put in a redirect and bid it farewell. --Drmargi (talk) 03:44, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Season 2 has been confirmed a while ago. This article takes a load off the main article, as the latter has become unpleasantly clumsy and bloated. If anything, this article looks like what I have seen across Wikipedia so far in terms of episode lists. EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 03:56, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

This split was not done correctly, nor does it meet the criteria for WP:NOTABILITY in its current state. Moreover, the main article is far from bloated. The appropriate move would be to start an episode article once S2 begins. Splits come off an episode article. That needs to be done first, then when it meets the standard for splits, it can be done with consensus. --Drmargi (talk) 05:04, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I Agree with EauZenCashHaveIt the main article looks like a particular season article it does not look like a series main article if most of this material is transported to this article it would be definitely better off and there in a lot of information on the main article already this would certainly relieve most of that information. The main article would then make a lot more sense. JohnGormleyJG (✉) 09:51, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

There is a correct way to do this, once S2 begins, and that is to move the content to an episode list article. You two are still new to Wikipedia, and need to do this correctly. A season article is split off an episodes article when specific criteria are met, but there needs to be an episodes article first. Right now, the article is perfectly appropriate for a single season show. --Drmargi (talk) 12:52, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Could you please link us to the policy that sets the standards you keep mentioning? EauZenCashHaveIt (I'm All Ears) 13:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Please see MOS:TV (under Multiple pages). Drmargi is right, you branch off the episode tables into List of Better Call Saul episodes once there's more than one season, then if there's significant content for season articles, they can be created. Here's some very good examples of season articles: Fringe (season 2), Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (season 1), The Walking Dead (season 1), Veronica Mars (season 1), The X-Files (season 1). Since there's only one season of the show (to date), it doesn't make sense to have a season article, because any content relevant to season 1 is relevant to the series as a whole. And Better Call Saul is nowhere near being hard to navigate, see WP:SIZERULE for a guideline on when to split articles. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:42, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Drovethrughosts is correct about the method for splitting. We're at least 5 months off creating List of Better Call Saul episodes and it's unlikely we'll start any season articles for maybe a year or two, or even more. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

And there you have it. These are two very experienced editors who have done extensive work on TV articles. They know what they're talking about, and you have both policy and a timeline. The article is well within length guidelines, and there's plenty of development to be done. Let's roll up our sleeves and work together. --Drmargi (talk) 17:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Time is now

It seems to me that it's time for a standalone season article to exist for the first three seasons of Better Call Saul since three seasons have already aired and a fourth is on it's way. Alot of notable television shows that air today have existing standalone season article, such as it's predecessor Breaking Bad. Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 23:01, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Keep discussing, and don't revert the redirect again. If you gain consensus to make the split, the community will expect you to do it a) properly and; b) completely. Removing the redirect for S1 and not creating S2 and S3 articles isn't appropriate. Frankly, given the lack of content in the S1 article doesn't give me any sense that we need a separate seasonal article. Just because other shows do doesn't mean this show does. There needs to be substantive, meaningful and notable content to justify a split. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 08:33, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Which can be done easily, Better Call Saul is a very popular TV series. It even has existing non-redirect articles for episodes, so why not seasons? Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I have moved the article to the draft space so that it can be worked on and improved. -- Alex^TW 19:31, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Optimistic Wikipedian: I'm happy to help you as a fellow editor to actually create this article by moving it to the draft space, instead of reverting and redirecting. The conten and sections I have added are ones that you'll find on any decent season article, and they need to be filled in with relevant content. Once this draft is moved to the mainspace, the content moved here from the series' main article will need to be trimmed down. A major issue that also needs to be fixed is that all of the episode summaries need to be trimmed down to 200 words or less per WP:TVPLOT - what currently exists is far too long. The other sections that need to be expanded upon are the lead (summarizing the main cast, the development, reception, etc.), the ratings table needs to be completed, adding in any further recurring and notable guest cast. After all of this is completed, you should be good to move it to the mainspace as a solid article! Good luck! -- Alex^TW 23:42, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Hey Alex^TW thanks for every contribution you've made to this article, you're doing a great job. I think its nearly finished, apart from the ratings section, everything else seems plausible. Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 10:59, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Optimistic Wikipedian: Great job! As can be seen here, not all of the ratings are available for this season. Bar that, the article is now in far better quality than it was here! I've swapped it back into main article space, put in the home media cover art and reinstated the categories. Now that it's in good quality and an actual article, even more editors can help contribute to it now. -- Alex^TW 19:20, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Netflix

Yes, Better Call Saul is a Sony-produced series made for AMC, however Netflix is joint commissioner of the show along with AMC. So that makes it a Netflix-owned series as well as an AMC-owned series. [1] Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 16:18, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Where is your source for that? That's not what the article you linked above says. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 17:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Here is proof that BCS is owned by Netflix -> [2] (Scroll down to #2). Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 17:42, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Netflix owns the distribution rights outside the U.S., the have nothing to do with the production of the series. They probably market it as a "Netflix original", that's why it's confusing. It's no different than if BBC aired the series in the UK, that wouldn't make it a BBC series. The Netflix information is covered in the Broadcast section. Something like, "Outside the United States, the series is distributed by Netflix" if you're so inclined on including it in the lede. Drovethrughosts (talk) 18:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. We get all sorts of British, Canadian and Australian stuff over here licensed as Netflix (or Amazon, or Hulu) originals. It doesn't mean Netflix owns the show. There are occasional ones Netflix does commission, notably The Crown, but most are simply part of international distribution deals. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 18:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

That's not what it says. BCS is broadcast by AMC in the U.S., then streams on Netflix after the season ends, and is a Netflix Original outside the U.S. That means Gilligan's company has licensed it for distribution on Netflix as a Netflix Original. That's a long way from Netflix being a joint commissioner or owner. If you'd read your original article carefully, you'd see it said that Gilligan shopped BCS to a number of potential distributors, including AMC and Netflix. He wanted it on AMC for obvious reasons, and AMC bought the distribution rights. Neither AMC nor Netflix owns the show, and neither commissioned it (that's not an expression we use in U.S. television.) You're reading far too much into that list. Moreover, BCS is an American show, making AMC the sole original channel. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 18:14, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Drmargi, you explained it all quite well. I'm in Canada, so when I look at my Netflix, BCS is not listed as a "Netflix original", but several British shows are as well some of the CW superhero shows; it's because Netflix owns the distribution rights in my region. They'll market whatever they can as an "original". Drovethrughosts (talk) 18:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I didn't realize you were Canadian! Your TV and ours are so closely tied, I'm not surprised it's not a NO production. Wish we got more of your TV shows; I miss Motive. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 21:46, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

I live in the Republic of Ireland where BCS is a Netflix Original (I'm currently on season 2 at the moment), so i can see now why we had some disagreements over whether or not BCS is owned by Netflix. AMC owns the license in the United States, so would it be necessary to include that it streamed on Netflix outside of the United States, since Wikipedia is used globally. Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Like I said above, the Netflix info is in the broadcast section. Generally, in the lede, only the original broadcaster (AMC) is mentioned, and any international broadcasting/distribution is mention elsewhere in the article. This article is currently conforming to that standard. Drovethrughosts (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay that seems fair, discussion has reached an official conclusion. Optimistic Wikipedian (talk) 23:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Just FYI, you might want to avoid declaring a discussion closed. It's not a big deal here, but Wikipedia is a collaborative process, and a lot of editors get really touchy about anything that implies ownership of a thread or an article. There are lots and lots of hall monitors among the editors. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 02:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Can you please stop lecturing me about everything i say or do. You're being very condescending towards me as well as you gave me a very hostile threat that i felt was uncalled for and very needless and insulting, not to mention the other lecturer you gave me about manners which was needless as well. The Optimistic One (talk) 07:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Good grief. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 08:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

People are just trying to help you OptimisticOne. I don't see how showing you the error of your ways could be seen as anything other than helpful. No one has been rude in this discussion. Esuka323 (talk) 12:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Esuka323 go see my talk page. The Optimistic One (talk) 18:08, 19 February 2018 (UTC)