Talk:Big Fish/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Viriditas

Review in progress

Hi. I'll be reviewing this article for the next several days. Viriditas (talk) 09:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

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I'm aware of the reassessment and delisting, and I'll be keeping those issues in mind during the review.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Images

• File:Big Fish movie.jpg - This poster says "coming soon". Wouldn't it make sense to have a release, rather than a pre-release poster? Or does it matter? Viriditas (talk) 23:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• File:BigFishTwins.jpg - Source link is 404. Might help to also find the article and link to it in context, rather than just the image. Article links may be updated, but hard links to images might break if the article changes location again. Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed. Viriditas (talk) 09:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• "Subtle use of computer-generated imagery (CGI) conjoins the Tai twins.[15]" Unfortunately, this caption does not have quotes and except for the word "helps" is basically taken verbatim from the source. Whenever possible, write everything (even captions) in your own words when you aren't using quotes. I'll try to fix this. Viriditas (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Fixed. Viriditas (talk) 22:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Lead

• I think the lead needs some cleanup:
  • Prose is a bit choppy for my taste
    • In progress. Will try to fix in the next day or so. Viriditas (talk) 13:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Almost done, but not quite. Viriditas (talk) 03:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Why are all of these cast members listed in the lead?
• "The film was mostly shot in Alabama, and had a much less gothic tone than Burton's other films such as Edward Scissorhands and Sleepy Hollow."
  • "less gothic tone than Burton's other films". Why is this important for the lead? I can think of at least four more important things to say about this film, but this isn't one of them.
    • Removed. It doesn't reflect what is said in the article, and I see no evidence it is true, important, or relevant. Viriditas (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
• "Many critics hailed the film as Burton's masterpiece". That's bordering on an extraordinary claim. Evidence?
  • Removed. I've reviewed the literature on the film and the top reviews and I cannot find any support for this statement. Viriditas (talk) 12:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
• "Big Fish tells the story of a son, Will, attempting to mend his estranged relationship with his dying father, Edward..."
  • No, the film actually tells the story of Edward Bloom, not Will, through the framing of his son trying to reconcile the father son conflict. This faulty storyline in the lead appears to have been taken from IMDb, another reason why we don't rely on it. However, it does appear that some reliable sources also summarize the film in this way.

Plot

• ~714 words. Looks good; I might make a few minor edits for clarity, but the issues dealing with plot length from the last review appear to be solved. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Themes

• No theme section, which is strange considering the number of good sources on this topic alone. (see further reading)
• Death
• Father-son conflict
• The journey of the hero, myths and stories (placement of Campbell's book The Hero with a Thousand Faces throughout the film)
  • Appears on Edward Bloom's nightstand as father and son try to work out their differences
• Myths, legends, and fairy tales (Cohen, "A Fairytale World", DVD commentary) "If you look at folktales or mythology, there are certain images and places and symbols of characters - witches, giants, werewolves, coming into a mystical city. All of the imagery and symbolism is sort of rooted in those classic themes and structures." (Burton)
• "the power of stories. His vision of how stories create, sustain and redeem people makes his film interesting for scholars of religion and sacred texts." (Brintnall 2004)
• Mythological city of Spectre compared to "Atlantis"
  • "Spectre really is a dream town where you eat apple pie and everybody is friendly towards each other and it's a little surreal, very dream like." (Buscemi)
  • "It feels real, but there's something that's not quite real about it. It has an edge, the people have an edge, there's an edge to what happens, and that's the edge of storytelling." (Gassner)

Spalding Grey

From the Wikipedia aritcle: On January 10, 2004, Gray, suffering from increasingly deep episodes of depression in part as a result of his injuries, was declared missing. The night before his disappearance he had seen Tim Burton's film Big Fish, which ends with the line "A man tells a story over and over so many times he becomes the story. In that way, he is immortal". Gray's widow, Kathie Russo, has said “You know, Spalding cried after he saw that movie. I just think it gave him permission. I think it gave him permission to die.” More detail in McMahan, Alison (2005). The Films of Tim Burton: Animating Live Action in Contemporary Hollywood. Continuum International Publishing Group. ISBN 0826415679.

Production

• Considering the amount of material available that documents the development process, this current section is too short.
  • More about the work between August and Wallace, as well as the opinion of the novelist can be added from here and "The Author's Journey" featurette.
    • Johnaugust.com has an enormous number of resources on this topic.[1][2] Strange Horizons interview lends some insight.
• "The director courted Jack Nicholson for the role of Edward Bloom, Sr. and had August write two additional drafts. "
  • That has to be the strangest use of "courted" I have ever seen.
• " The director then decided to cast around for the two actors in question."
  • But this avoids explaining why Nicholson wasn't used. The implication is that the CGI would have been time-consuming and complex, but this isn't stated in the text.
• Casting section (under production) doesn't say anything about Miley Cyrus (it was her first role?)
• Stan Winston Studio information can be expanded ("Creature Features" featurette, etc.) This includes the puppetry used for the tree and wolf scenes, including the CG spiders (and non-CG spiders).
• "Scenes with Karl the Giant were commissioned using forced perspective filmmaking."
  • That's a good summary, but there's more to say about Matthew McGrory.
• "Viewing Finney's performance in Tom Jones (1963), Burton found him similar to McGregor, and coincidentally found a People magazine article comparing the two."
  • The point is that Burton found that the younger Finney resembled McGregor, who plays the younger Bloom in the film. This needs to be clear.
• Nothing in the article mentioning the award-winning production team:
  • Academy Award-winning production designer Dennis Gassner, whom Burton chose to use for this film over his typical crew
    • Gassner helped with the small sets and vignettes. The town of Spectre was the largest set they worked with. (Burton, DVD commentary)
      • Design of Spectre: pleasant but lived-in look. Brightly lit, but aged.
  • Academy Award-winning costume designer Colleen Atwood. (Molineaux 2004)
    • Done. Added to image caption. Viriditas (talk) 00:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Academy Award-winning cinematographer Philippe Rousselot
• Shot for four months on location. "Like being on another planet" according to Burton. Nice people, but suspicious of "movie types". Huge insects, weird sounds, smell from a paper mill - an experience you can't get from a soundstage. (Burton)
• There's no writing section, but I've added the 2004 article from Script Magazine to further reading for use as a source.
• Some day for night shooting used for the "shortcut through the woods" scene where Edward Bloom is on his way to the town of Spectre (Burton, DVD commentary)

Music

• Considering the award nomination, there needs to be a bit more about the score. Viriditas (talk) 14:17, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Critical analysis

• "Observations modeled the film after Forrest Gump..."
  • That's a very clunky, roundabout way of saying some reviewers noticed similarities between the two films. Observations don't model the film.
• Sources note at least nine deliberate references to other films. This isn't mentioned.
  • Opening scene of Bloom's entry into Spectre shows a man in a rocking chair playing a few notes from "Dueling Banjos", a deliberate reference to Deliverance (1972). The man is, in fact, Billy Redden, the same actor from the original film. (Burton, DVD commentary, 30:47; Akron Beacon Journal, 2004-09-24)
  • "Burton was intent on getting Redden, who hadn't appeared in a film since Deliverance, to play the role of a banjo-playing welcomer in the utopian town of Spectre. Burton eventually found him in Clayton, Georgia, where Redden worked as a cook, dishwasher and part-owner of the Cookie Jar Café." See also:[3]
  • Burton's attempt to "personalize" the film with actors like Redden, is followed up with author Daniel Wallace appearing as the Economics Teacher in the "Courtship of Sandra Templeton" scene.
    • Done. Viriditas (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
• Ebert mentions that this film was very similar to The Barbarian Invasions, released around the same time.

Psychological approach

• Clive Baldwin of the University of Bradford in "Blurring the boundaries between fact and fiction: Tim Burton's Big Fish and narrative theory".
  • Baldwin takes a psychotomimetic approach, comparing the fuzzy narrative in the film to the experience of dementia[4]

Reliable sources

• DVDActive.com: Reliable source? Possibly. Can the same information be found in more reliable cites? Is the information accurate? Viriditas (talk) 12:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
  • In progress. I've found RS to replace the ones the last reviewer was concerned about. Viriditas (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Strike that. The sources did not have the same, exact information as DVD Active. Since the previous reviewer had concerns about this source, I'm not sure why I can't find another one that duplicates this exact information. I'll keep looking. Viriditas (talk) 13:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
      • Ok, found one in the NYT. Adding it now... Viriditas (talk) 13:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
        • All of the information can be found on All Movie Guide which the NYT uses for their movies pages. I'll check with the first reviewer to find out if either of these are acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 13:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
          • Mostly done. Still need to add and replace a better link about the booklet. Viriditas (talk) 14:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
            • Done. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Considering the extensive commentary by the director on the DVD, it's surprising to see none of it in the article.
  • Added a quote to the development section. Viriditas (talk) 13:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
• I'm having server reliability issues with the IGN links. Viriditas (talk) 10:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Done. Links are fine now. Viriditas (talk) 22:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Further reading

• Important sources are missing from this article. I'll try and add a few. Viriditas (talk) 12:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
  • In progress. Viriditas (talk) 12:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I've added several sources, but it doesn't look like the primary editors did very much research. This could have an impact on my review regarding broad coverage. It's definitely B-Class, but right now, I can't pass it as a GA without some more work (outlined above). Viriditas (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• Where does this review stand currently? Looks like there's work in progress on both sides, but given it's 100-day stay at GAN, hopefully more work can be done on the writer side (the reviewer seems to be doing just as much work on the article). No need to pass/fail just yet, I'd rather the review be detailed, but keep it moving :) Wizardman 15:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
  • I'll finish this up in the next hour if there are no interruptions in RL. Viriditas (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
    • Not quite done, but making progress. Viriditas (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
      • Done. Viriditas (talk) 12:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)