Talk:Bill Clinton pardon controversy

Let's keep partisan viewpoints out of this

I would LOVE to know what Republican pardons have to do with Clinton's pardons, other than that some Leftist loose screw wants to make Pardongate seem "not so bad".

Putting Clinton's pardon in context seems appropriate. The POV of the poster is evident.--agr 19:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The Constitution gives the President unfettered authority to pardon anyone he wants, for any reason he wants. It is in fact one of the only Constitutional powers that has no limits whatsoever. That makes "Pardongate" the definition of a manufactured "scandal". It's funny how this "scandal" gets a separate article, but George H.W. Bush's last-minute pardons of his Iran-Contra accomplices gets only a short section in his own article. Wikipedia conservative bias, perhaps? 71.203.209.0 00:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

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Leftist loose screw? How about we refer to ring wingers as the Neo Nazi Douchebgs that they are? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.29.94.127 (talk) 08:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

FALN responsible for 130 bombings

In 1983, they claimed responsiblity for 120 bombings. At least 10 more bombings (some sources say 15) took place before the 16 FALN members who were pardoned were captured. After their caputre, the only other bombing incident that was planned by the group (to my knownledge) was the prison breakout of one of the members. If you look at this website [2], you will see that there is not one bombing that took place outside of the US by this group. In fact, I don't know of a single bombing by this group that took place outside the US. Most of the bombings were in the cities of Chicago and New York City. The group did in fact commit other crimes, but they were in fact responsible for at least 130 bombings. But I'll be willing to compromise and only state that the had set off bombs 120 times in the US, a number that FALN itself has stated publicly in 1983. But I will not let anyone whitewash the number of bombings that they were responsible inside the US. --just an anon

"when the prisoners had refused to renounce violence more than three weeks after clemency was offered" - the source for this is citation number 7, and upon a brief reading I do not see this statement supporting that they had refused to renounce violence. shouldn't this be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.173.42 (talk) 01:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the FALN were responsible for a number of bombings. if you read the references more carefully, you will see that the people Clinton pardoned were not responsible for any of them inspite of their membership in the organization. Further, all had already served 19 years in prison. Richrakh````

I disagree with the statement above. They were not specifically convicted of crimes that led to killing or maiming, according to a letter by the President. But as with everything the reality was complex. Some were convicted of transporting explosives. Many were convicted as part of a conspiracy that included members (e.g Marie Haydée Beltrán Torres) involved in bombings that resulted in deaths. There are levels of responsibility and there is also the difficulty of convicting someone for a specific act. For example, the evidence suggested that explosives used in bombings claimed by the FALN matched explosives captured in safe-houses that had been used by many, if not most of those included in the pardons. So they wer not found legally responsible for the individual bombings, but one expects that some among them were individually responsible. For example, no one has been convicted of the Fraunces Tavern bombing and the death that ensued, but there is evidence that FALN members, including among those pardoned, would have been involved. In the case of Marie Haydee Beltran Torres, she left fingerprints at the office that was bombed that allowed them to establish that she left the bomb, there were no fingerprints at the Fraunces Tavern. You are correct that many served 19 years in prison, and likely some of these only had peripheral involvement with the organization.Rococo1700 (talk) 21:24, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Neutral POV

I don't want to get in a revert war here, but somebody has added back in the sentence "It is widely believed she was a victim of Kenneth Starr's witchhunt." to the Susan McDougal section. Firstly, the term "witchhunt" doesn't belong in a neutral POV article. On top of that, "it is widely believed" is just weasel wording for "I think that..." If there's factual data to be included here, great. If someone wants to rewrite this sentence so that it's clearly true, that's wonderful. But as written, it simply doesn't belong here. Gary D Robson 03:36, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay. We have an anonymous contributor (or possibly two) continuing to add this inflammatory statement each time it is reverted. Said contributor(s) won't defend this action here on the talk page, and hasn't tried any other wording. I've rephrased the sentence to make it NPOV. If it gets changed again, I'm afraid this article will need an NPOV tag and/or mediation. Gary D Robson 04:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Even having the line "Some believed that McDougal had been unjustly prosecuted as a part of Kenneth Starr's investigation of Clinton," is not NPOV, as it is an opinion that has no basis in fact. If we are to include opinions, we should also logically include "Some believed that McDougal was pardoned in exchange for keeping silent about Clinton's role in Whitewater. --Alfoor 20:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

There's another issue here. The FALN "pardons" were not. They were commutations as can readily be seen by reading the link (number 3) under FALN Pardons. The full text of the release orders is here [DOJ News Release]. A pardon is not the same as a commutation of sentence. I feel the title is a mischaracterization of actual events. To wit: "Unlike a pardon, a commutation does not nullify the conviction and is often conditional." BingoDingo (talk) 19:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Republican Pardons

This article doesn't contain the word "Democrat" anywhere and doesn't criticize the Democratic party in any way whatsoever. Why, then, is the final section of the article entitled "Republican presidential pardons?" I think this section should be "Other presidential pardons" or "Comparable presidential pardons," and discuss controversial pardons by other presidents of both parties. Comments? Gary D Robson 17:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok by me. Derex 04:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

moved material

I moved the below from the main Clinton article, because that's what this one is for. I think all this info is in here or the Marc Rich article. But, placing it here, in case anyone wants to merge details in. Derex 04:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

On Clinton's last day in office, he pardoned over 200 convicted felons, including his brother Roger who had completed a prison sentence on drug charges and Dan Rostenkowski, the former Chairman of House Ways and Means Committee who had been convicted on corruption and mail fraud charges. Carlos Vignali (convicted of cocaine trafficking) and Almon Braswell (convicted of fraud), both of whom were clients of Clinton’s brother-in-law Hugh Rodham, were pardoned. Rodham later returned the $400,000 in legal fees he earned representing Vignali and Braswell. Another one of those pardoned was Marc Rich, a financier who had fled the United States decades before for tax evasion and other illegal activities including buying illegal oil from the Islamic Republic of Iran. Though his company put up a $200 million dollar bond on behalf of Rich and his partner, Rich fled the country before being indicted and never saw a day of trial or incarceration. Many questioned the pardon because Denise Rich was a generous donor to the Clinton campaigns and to his library. These actions quickly led to public hearings by congress, headed by Congressman Dan Burton into the legality of all of Clinton's presidential pardons. Federal prosecutor Mary Jo White was appointed to investigate as well. The investigation revealed that Denise Rich's last donation to the Clinton library came a full year before Marc Rich's attorney's even discussed asking her to lobby Clinton on his behalf. Burton, as part of his investigation, listened to taped recordings of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak pleading with Clinton to pardon Rich as well - Rich had provided millions of dollars in financing for Palestinian development projects and the Israelis considered Rich a significant part of the peace process. Marc Rich was required to pay a $100 million dollar fine as part of the pardon and to waive all statute of limitations in regards to any future civil charges. James Comey later replaced Mary Jo White, and he closed the investigation without filing any indictments.

References

Weasel words

An editor has repeatedly deleted the following opening sentence from the "Pardons signed on final day of office" category: "It is common practice for Presidents to grant a number of pardons shortly before leaving office". This is a well known and referenced fact, and seems to me irrefutably relevant to the content of the category - Clinton wasn't setting a new precedent by any means, and his actions follow suit with prior presidents. As well, this same user has added the addendum "...just hours before George W. Bush's inauguration.[10]". Not only is the unnecessary insertion of the word "just" a weasel word, why would one not include the precise amount of time, as opposed to simply stating "hours". Was it two hours? Twenty? "Hours" certainly implies a very short amount of time, which makes a common and legit practice appear somewhat sneaky and underhanded. This looks more like POV pushing than encyclopedic and relevant editing, IMHO.--Jackbirdsong 23:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Can you substantiate on your "well known and referenced fact" statement? No. The problem is that you do not read. I gave you a link to read: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons6.htm. In case you truly are so lazy to even do that, here's all I really needed you to read (if you can do that): "reports began to circulate that there would be a large number of grants at the end of his term. This by itself would be unusual, for pardoning had in the past taken place regularly and consistently throughout the President’s term and was not reserved until its end." So, please, when people make edits, at least attempt to read their edit summaries. Further, when you delete content from Wikipedia, at least read (my underlying theme here) what you're deleting. For example, there was no need to delete the reference (very important on Wikipedia!) that clearly stated it was a "list of the people pardoned or commuted Saturday before President Clinton left office, as released by the White House." ~ UBeR 18:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Well, firstly, while I would prefer to stay on topic and discuss your actions as an editor, rather than stoop to your level of personal insults (although pretty funny- I cannot read, and yet I am supposed to respond to your written statement) you seem to have missed the point here. All that I was saying above was that it is not uncommon practice, or an unheard of event, for Presidents to grant late, or "last-minute" pardons. You want me to substantiate my claim? here's one example - http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/07/bush.pardon/index.html. The point was that it seemed to me (and now given your immature behavior on this page, it seems all the more plausible) that your edits are designed to show one side of the story. In your above ranting, nowhere did you address my concerns in a polite and civilized manner. Perhaps its my fault, for not having given you the benefit of the doubt in the first place, but those initial concerns are all the more justified by your belligerent and personally insulting response.--Jackbirdsong 02:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry for my harsh response, but let it be known that one should assume good faith in the contributions of Wikipedia's contributors. It is especially detrimental to ignore the explanations said editor gave for edits, and then to ask for those same explanations after reverting the edits. I hope that you can see where I am coming from in that regard. ~ UBeR 03:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

My main point was simply that it is common for presidents to grant last minute pardons. I in fact did initially read the link you provided, which states:"reports began to circulate that there would be a large number of grants at the end of his term. This by itself would be unusual, for pardoning had in the past taken place regularly and consistently throughout the President’s term and was not reserved until its end." As it is possible for two people to have different interpretations of the same information, here is the way I see it: This statement maintains that it is uncommon for presidents to reserve the majority of their pardons for the end of their term rather than spreading them envenly throughout. But it does not specifically say that prior presidents never granted last minute pardons. This was my point- that Clinton's actions were not unprecedented in the sense that they were late pardons, but rather in the sense that they were so numerous. It was the addition of "...just hours before George W. Bush's inauguration.[10]" that made the whole thing seem so POV to me. I think that simply stating the date and number of pardons granted would be entirely sufficient and NPOV. --Jackbirdsong 03:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Why does this page exist?

I just edited this page, but started to wonder why we have it at all. Couldn't we just mention on the page List of people pardoned by Bill Clinton that there was controversy? --KarlFrei 13:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a clear example of conservative bias. As mentioned above, George Bush's last-minute pardons of his own accomplices in a criminal endeavour have only a brief mention in his main article, while this manufactured "controversy" gets an article to itself. The double standard is quite obvious. 71.203.209.0 07:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"Last minute," yet he's still in office? Trying to make sense of your post, but I cannot. ~ UBeR 01:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You're not really unaware that there was another President named George Bush, are you? If not, I suppose your inability to understand that post would make some sense. — Red XIV ^(talk) 11:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

changes to the Mel Reynolds, Rostenkowski and R. Clinton notes.

I cleaned up the references to Mel Reynolds to include the information that his sentence was commuted and that he had served his entire sentence on child sex abuse charges, and was released to serve the balance of his sentence on bank fraud charges under the auspices of a half way house.

I noted that Rostenkowski and Roger Clinton had both served their entire sentence before they were pardoned.

Smokingmaenad 23:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

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Carter

The number of people stated to have been pardoned by Carter is not correct. Carter issued a pardon for all Vietnam War draft dodgers, without naming or otherwise identifying them. The exact number of draft dodgers is indeterminate, but definitely more than stated in this article. 47.139.43.165 (talk) 05:06, 4 September 2022 (UTC)