Talk:Bill Madden (soldier)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton talk 00:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Madden in 1947

• ... that George Cross recipient Bill Madden (pictured) died as result of malnutrition and ill-treatment by his Chinese captors while a prisoner of war? Source: Blanch, Craig (2020). For Gallantry: Australians Awarded the George Cross & the Cross of Valour. Sydney: New South Publishing. ISBN 978-1-74223-682-7, p. 109
  • ALT1: ... that George Cross recipient Bill Madden (pictured) remained cheerful and optimistic despite repeated beatings by his Chinese captors while a prisoner of war? Source: Blanch, Craig (2020). For Gallantry: Australians Awarded the George Cross & the Cross of Valour. Sydney: New South Publishing. ISBN 978-1-74223-682-7, p. 107
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Ged Kearney
  • Comment:

Improved to Good Article status by Peacemaker67 (talk). Self-nominated at 03:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Bill Madden (soldier); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Approve first hook. While his courage appears to be not only verifiable but also inspirational, I don't feel super confident about approving a hook that relies on a military award citation. Otherwise, outstanding GA, great work all around. Image is GTG. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67 and Pbritti: Earwig reveals some WP:CLOP that needs attention. Bruxton (talk) 00:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Update: I looked a bit closer at the sections and I may be wrong. Log titles and not much else to fret about. Bruxton (talk) 00:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Issues

First, the phrase 'maintaining an indomitable spirit' in the lede is an instance of blatantly unencyclopedic and hagiographic tone (and the whole way the informational content is selected gives off the same flavour). Second, from all the text it doesn't become clear what 'collaboration with the enemy' Madden was refusing to engage in, unless the collaboration the Chinese wanted was his ceasing to 'heap abuse on them'. (I'm not convinced that 'heaping abuse' on the enemy troops while a POW is exemplary behaviour per se - it sounds just like a particularly meaningless way to endanger your health and survival. Of course his provocative behaviour was not an excuse for the Chinese mistreating him, but chivalrousness tends to be a luxury that the better-supplied and more powerful side is in the mood to maintain.) I know it's hopeless to even bring up the fact that all the information comes from one side in the conflict and should be presented in a more reserved manner. No explanations would have been needed for why an equivalent hagiographic narrative from the PRC needs to be treated with caution, indeed it certainly would have been rendered in a highly sceptical and cynical way. But, of course, in such matters, (pro-)Western sources are always considered self-evidently reliable, and any source coming from their adversaries would always be considered self-evidently unreliable. The placing of the whole article on the front page as a 'DYK piece' seems like part of a PR effort to prepare the Australian public for a soon-to-come war with China, which, in spite of the near-certainty of a resulting global nuclear catastrophe, our lunatic Western powers-that-be seem seriously determined to launch. Anonymous44 (talk) 23:02, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The political polemic aside, if you have reliable PRC sources on the subject of Madden’s capture and treatment, then feel free to add them and the material they support to the article. It was nominated for DYK because it recently passed a GAN. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I brought this thread to the attention of reviewers at FAC, and they have made suggestions which I have implemented. I think it is reasonable to archive this thread now, as no alternative sources have been provided or suggested. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)