Talk:Billy Geen/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Shudde (talk · contribs) 05:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Hey. I've decided to review this article. I will hopefully start the review shortly, but before I do this is how I normally go about it: I'll usually read through the article starting immediately after the lead, and make comments as I go. These comments do not necessarily relate directly to the Good article criteria, but should in most cases. I believe that if I'm going to review an article, I may as well give any feedback I can, regardless of whether it relates to meeting the GA criteria. I read the lead last. Once I've finished reading through, I normally check the references and images (although sometimes I check these as I go). It is here that I'll normally spotcheck the references (to see that they verify the relevant statement) and also check for close-paraphrasing. If I find any problems with close paraphrasing I'll fail the article immediately – I'm not comfortable passing an article if there is a chance it contains a copyright violation. I see this as a collaborative process, so if you have any questions feel free to ask, and I'll make sure that I check back regularly. I'll start the review promptly. -- Shudde ^talk 05:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

article

• At Haileybury he was wicketkeeper for the cricket XI and played centre for their rugby XV and captained the team. -- this may confuse some readers. Consider rewording and linking. Maybe "At Haileybury he was wicket-keeper in the school's cricket team, and captained their rugby team at centre."

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• There is very little on his early life. Could any more information be found?

• This is all I have been able to find. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• You should wiki-link sporting positions where you can; they're jargon so the linking may help those unfamiliar with rugby or cricket.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• He was "in the thick of everything", a "class centre" with a "dodging style" maybe add "according to E. H. D. Sewell" somewhere in there.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• The First World War prevented him from playing more for Wales -- missing a fullstop

• Well spotted! FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• He was selected to play for the Blues -- At start of a new section probably best to sat "Geen" rather than "He"

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Blues" is colloquial

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Link "try" on its first use

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Moments later, Poulton ran through the defence, drew the full back and passed to Geen to dive in at the corner. -- isn't clear who Poulton played for until this point. Also a bit colloquial. How about "Moments later, Poulton ran through the defence, drew the fullback and passed to Geen who scored a try in the corner."

• OK, clarified in previous sentence, however, I think diving is not colloquial, rather describes the action. He might alternatively have touched it down, been pushed over, slid over etc... I have added "for a try". FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Link conversion

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Geen got his second try beginning with another break from Poulton and a pass from fly-half Freddie Knott. Cambridge meanwhile scored two tries through Ovens and a third through Lewis, and at half-time were leading 15–13. Fifteen minutes into the second half, Lewis scored a second try for Cambridge and put them five points clear. Lewis, who was faster than his opposite man Allen, was injured in a tackle and in the days before substitutes were permitted, Cambridge was a man down with Marburg, a forward, covering the wing. Oxford then had the advantage in the forwards, and Poulton capitalised on it. He scored from a dummy pass to Geen; and again, receiving a pass from Knott ran in a solo try. - This just contains a little too much jargon and unclear English. As well it probably goes beyond the scope of a biography. Some minor changes would help the non-rugby experts a little bit. How about "Geen got his second try after another break from Poulton and a pass from fly-half Freddie Knott [not sure who Knott is passing too, Poulton or Geen?]. Cambridge meanwhile scored two tries, and at half-time were leading 15–13. Fifteen minutes into the second half, Cambridge scored again to lead by five points. A Cambridge player was forced to leave the field due to injury, and as no substitutes were allowed, a forwards moved into the backs to try and compensate. This gave Oxford an advantage in the forwards, and Poulton capitalised on it. He scored from a dummy pass to Geen; and again, receiving a pass from Knott ran in a solo try." -- Dummy pass is also jargon but not sure if an appropriate link exists.

• On reflection, it might be unclear to someone who isn't familiar with the game and, as you say, too much detail. I've edited. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Varsity Match" will need a link somewhere as many readers won't instinctively know this refers to Oxford-Cambridge.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• He was picked, alongside his Oxford teammate Poulton, to play for England against The North in Leeds for the second trial, the pair considered the scoring force of the Oxford team. -- Again not sure about the English. How about "Green and Poulton were considered the scoring force of the Oxford team, and the pair were selected to play a trial match for England against The North in Leeds."

• I've reworded. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• On the day, although Geen scored a try, he was outshone by Poulton and based on his form, after the game he was not expected to make the cut. -- the grammar here is a bit odd and it could do with a rewrite.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• winning the mental battle in the first five minutes -- this could do with some clarification
• Geen's form coming in to the game was suspect but he made good his place on the team. -- English

• OK. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Geen, who was described by Tommy Vile's biographer Philip J Grant as looking 'the promising player in Wales', played for Newport Rugby Club before going to Oxford, scoring 10 tries and a dropped goal in 14 games for the Monmouthshire club -- this could probably do with being split into two sentences.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• The ball was now worked --> "The ball was then worked"

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• and he kicked for goal --> " and he kicked a drop-goal" (with link)

• OK (but linked earlier) FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Newport scored again through a cross-kick from Wetter, which Birt jumped on over the line for a try, which he then converted. -- "Newport scored again after a cross-kick from [first name?] Wetter landed over the try line, which [first name?] Birt jumped on to score and subsequently convert."

• Both mentioned earlier (actually in the very same paragraph). FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Otto Van Der Hoff on the line -- missing a quotation mark

• Good spot. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Be a bit careful with some terms. You use "full back" and later "fullback" for example. Try and be consistent. There may be other similar examples I've missed.

• I'll comb through. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• His final game for Wales was to be on 8 March 1913 -- "His final game for Wales was on 8 March 1913"

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• There is a bit of a movement from past to future tense and visa versa. This is a little bit of a problem. Might be worth having a read through once you've made any changes and seeing if you can make it consistent.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• when he showed "brilliance and judgment" (according to Townsend Collins) leading to two tries towards a Welsh 16–13 victory,[18] demonstrating that he had the skill to play centre as well as wing -- this is a little unclear and I'm not sure about the English (for example did Geen score the two tries, or just show "brilliance" that allowed others to score them?).

• Indeed. I've clarified his contribution to the tries rather than his scoring them and removed the latter part of the sentence. FunkyCanute (talk)

• Geen was to have played centre for the first match of the 1914 Home Nations against England at Twickenham. -- Again with the English. Was he selected? In which case " Geen was selected to play centre for the first match of the 1914 Home Nations, against England at Twickenham, but withdrew due to injury."

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Later that year Geen was again invited to play for the Barbarians, another contest against Cardiff in their traditional Boxing Day encounter. -- How about "Later that year Geen was again invited to play for the Barbarians, this time against Cardiff in their traditional Boxing Day encounter."

• One of the previous games was against Cardiff. Your version sounds like it's the first. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• Mobbs followed this up by arranging the RAMC match, captaining a Barbarians team made up of military personnel, to a 10–3 victory. -- How about: "Mobbs followed this up by arranging a RAMC, match and captained a Barbarians team made up of military personnel to a 10–3 victory." -- also put RAMC in brackets after "Royal Army Medical Corps" when first used.

• I've reworked this paragraph. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• "His life is commemorated on the Menin Gate." -- maybe expand on this a little (a sentence will do).

lead

• was a Welsh international rugby union wing and centre, who played club rugby for Oxford University and Newport and county rugby for Monmouthshire -- there may be a case of overlinking here, and although it's implicit, might be good to mention he played for Wales in the first sentence. Could I suggest "was an international rugby union wing and centre who represented Wales, and played rugby for Oxford University, Newport, and the Barbarians, and county rugby for Monmouthshire."

• I prefer the existing. I think it's clear that if he's a "Welsh international" that he played for Wales, unless he played for another country, in which case that would need special explanation. With regards to the Barbars, players are invited to play whilst representing other clubs, rather than being members of a club and selected to play for the team, so it's worth keeping separate. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm a bit worried about the term international (which is British English) which may not be familiar to everyone. Explicitly saying he played for Wales (and not saying he's Welsh -- which probably doesn't need to be linked regardless) in the first sentence would just remove any possible confusion. I'm aware of how Barbarian selections work, but it is after all a club side (yes a very prestigious and unusual one). -- Shudde ^talk 07:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• I think we should be ok with British English. The term 'international' is used in this way in rugby articles throughout English Wikipedia. In any case, I've reworded. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Although he was selected to play in other matches, injury and the First World War prevented him from taking further part. -- this is misleading, because he wasn't selected for matches he couldn't play due to the war. How about "Injury prevented him playing several matches for Wales, and the First World War further curtailed his international career."

• Yes, ok. I've reworded to clarify. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• link to Blue (university sport) and I think it is capitalised.

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• link Varsity Matches in the lead

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• I wonder if the lead could be expanded a little bit, but I'll leave that up to you.

I'm done with reviewing of prose etc, just need to do a source and image check. -- Shudde ^talk 06:20, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Images

• File:Menenpoort ieper.jpg -- no problems with the license. May be worth expanding the caption however.
• File:Billy Geen.jpg -- there needs to be further evidence that the author is unknown and that all reasonable effort has been made to establish who they are. Also may need to justify why the author would have died before 1945.

• This one is from Sewell (1919), by a company of photographers in Newport (J Williams & Co). I can't find any more details about them. I've uploaded a new version of this and updated the file summary.FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
  • It's listed in a 1914 street directory (but not a 1938 one ([http://www.newportpast.com/records/directories/johns1938/search.php?term=Williams&Submit=Submit). So they'd either gone defunct, renamed, or moved cities. I think we've gone to all reasonable effort now. -- Shudde ^talk 06:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• File:Newport Rugby Club 1912.jpg -- This has the same problem as File:Billy Geen.jpg. I found a different copy of this image at [1] that is not cropped. There may be others out there that can help establish whether the author is known or not.

• This one was used by Townsend (1948) but was originally from NAC (Newport Athletic Club) but the author is unknown. I have updated the file summary accordingly. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Sources

• All the offline sources are legitimate.
• Is there any publisher information (including location) for the Townsend Collins and Sewell books?

• added FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Random spotcheck:

• [2] -- supports statement, however needs an accessdate and correct title.

• Done FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• [5] -- offline will AGF
• [9] -- does not want to load for me. Any clues why?

• No idea. Works fine for me. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• [11] -- offline will AGF
• [12] -- ditto
• [17] -- ditto
• [21] -- ditto
• [24] -- supports statement, again needs an accessdate

• Done. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• [25]] -- also needs accessdate

• OK FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

• [32] -- offline will AGF
• [36] -- ditto
• [45] -- ditto
• [47] -- Supports statement needs accessdate.

• 47? Have added to 46. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Please double check that all the web links have accessdates. A few are missing them by the looks of it.

• Done. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Overall

Good work on the article -- I enjoyed reading it. I've also worked on a few articles of rugby players killed during the First World War, I've even got Dave Gallaher at FAC right now, so when I saw this nominated I was keen to read it. It was an enjoyable article and pretty easy for me to read. I'm a bit worried about some of the English; mainly for those non-rugby followers who aren't particularly familiar with the game. Please take all my prose recommendations with a grain of salt; they're only meant to offer ideas for improving the language, you don't have to stick with them exactly, especially if you think you can do better than my suggestions!

I'm going to place this article on hold. I think it comfortable passes criteria 2, 3, 4 and 5. I've mentioned the prose above, and the only other thing is the images. Those points need to be addressed; we can't make assumptions about the author being unknown. If you have any questions or queries feel free to ask. I'll try and check back regularly, but if you're not getting a timely response message me. I see no reason why this can't all be done well before the 31 July! Cheers. -- Shudde ^talk 06:52, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the helpful and thorough review and I've made a great number of changes. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. Great to see Dave Gallaher at FAC. I'm currently working my way through all the WWI rugby internationals KIA in chronological order. I started with Frank Tarr, which is also at GAN currently and I'll be nominating Albert Downing quite soon. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

A couple more comments, and some remaining from above:

• He was to repeat the feat the following year. -- this is slightly unclear to me. Does the feat refer to the error of dropping the ball over the tryline?

• Have reworded as 'error'. That should hopefully be clear now. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• "His life is commemorated on the Menin Gate." -- maybe expand on this a little (a sentence will do).

• Done. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• winning the mental battle in the first five minutes -- this could do with some clarification

• Really? OK, I think I'll just remove this, otherwise there'll be undue emphasis on this minor point. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah I'm really not sure what that means exactly. You're probably right that it should just be removed. -- Shudde ^talk 04:33, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

• I think term time is British English so have reworded

• I'll check with my American lodger! In the meantime, I've switched to 'in the holidays', which I know is also British English, but Americans understand the term. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@FunkyCanute: Once those are addressed I'll happily pass the article. I've made a few minor tweaks. Mainly links etc; feel free to change/revert if you're unhappy. I've made a few contributions to some of the biographies listed at List of international rugby union players killed in World War I but I should probably get onto the New Zealanders. Far too many red links in there! -- Shudde ^talk 07:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Shudde: I think we're probably done here. Let me know if there's anything outstanding that needs to be fixed for GA. Thanks so much for your work on this... and also on Henry Dewar, which I'll now be working to get to GAN, now that I've just nominated Albert Downing! FunkyCanute (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@FunkyCanute: Yeah it's there now. Congratulations on the article! -- Shudde ^talk 04:33, 15 July 2015 (UTC)