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Talk:Birmingham New Street railway station/GA1

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Latest comment: 4 years ago by The Rambling Man in topic GA Review

GA Review

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Latest comment: 4 years ago94 comments4 people in discussion
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Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 15:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)Reply


Comments

@The Rambling Man: @Redrose64: I am not sure if DfT categories and PTE categories in infoboxes are ever referenced. Please do clarify. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:23, 17 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

This gets me about a third of the way through the history section. There's an awful lot of work to do here. I'll put it on hold and see how we get on with this first tranche of comments. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

@The Rambling Man: I agree that the lead is too long. I am having a look to see if I can move the bottom two paragraphs. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
First improvement - the last paragraph of the lead has been removed because it almost duplicates exactly what it says on the "West Midlands Metro" section. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:39, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
The issue with the lead has now been resolved. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I am very busy and I am on-and-off Wikipedia but I will try my best. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I tend to allow a week for comments to be addressed considering we're nowhere near throughthe review, it might be that you should withdraw if you can't commit to fixing up things in those timescales. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
CrossCountry is the most extensive railway network in Britain. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yes?The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
@The Rambling Man: I removed "– the most extensive railway network in Britain, with long-distance trains serving destinations from Aberdeen to Penzance"; I don't have a source to say CrossCountry is "the most extensive railway network in Britain" and Aberdeen-Penzance is only one route served by one tpd so there is not need to mention that. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

It would also be more helpful for you to note any amendments/queries inline with my initial comments. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

@The Rambling Man: Done for today; I will be back tomorrow to do some more fixes. Pkbwcgs (talk) 17:33, 16 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Let me know when you're done with this lot and I'll do another section maybe later today. Plenty to go. And please, no need to keep pinging me, this review (as with all the others I'm doing) is on my watchlist, and I regularly check. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think that is pretty much the first huge set of comments dealt with; I think I am ready to move onto the next set. Once you have prepared the next set of comments, I will come back later to deal with them. Pkbwcgs (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ref 2 doesn't confirm who the PTE is at all. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:40, 18 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Oh dear. I really cannot find a reference to confirm the PTE. Sorry. I checked everywhere. It is because it is just a given fact that every station in the West Midlands has a PTE of Transport for West Midlands. There is a reference for the zone and that has been added. If I just add a reference to a list of stations in the West Midlands, that is not going to answer your question. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:44, 18 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

We have a long way to go on this. I note things like Queen's Hotel (in italics and with apostrophe) are still there. You need to double-check that you have addressed these comments because I'm barely 25% of the way through on the first "quick" pass.... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:03, 18 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sigh. This is indeed going to be tricky. I have fixed the problem with "Queen's Hotel" but this looks like it is going to take a while. I will see how I go. I have been working hard on this so it wouldn't be wise of me to just withdraw it. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:39, 18 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yes, this is going to be a long slog. But I'm happy to follow it through. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:46, 18 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I am also happy to do these improvements. The only thing I can't do is spend hours and hours doing these improvements. I can only spend a certain amount of time a day doing these improvements (30 minutes-1 hour) because I am very busy in real life at the moment. Pkbwcgs (talk) 09:09, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
That's fine, there's no deadline as long as I feel progress is being made the nomination can continue. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Midland Railway extension to 1960s rebuild comments

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  • "Midland Railway's extension of New Street station, in 1885." fragment so no need for full stop.   Done
  • "Midland Railway trains" MR is overlinked.   Done
  • "to the south; the Birmingham West Suburban Railway was " -> "to the south, the Birmingham West Suburban Railway, was "   Done
  • " this allowed " which allowed.   Done
  • "through trains to and from the south-west to run through " through through is repetitive.   Done
  • "extension, the construction of it began in 1881" -> "extension, the construction of which began in 1881"   Done
  • "Chief Engineer to" no need for capitals.   Done
  • " it became used exclusively" - it was used..   Done
  • "rebuilding of the 1960s" -> 1960s rebuild.   Done
  • "Queens Drive was lost in the rebuilding of the 1960s, but the name was later carried by a new driveway which served the car park and a tower block, and is the access route for the station's taxis." unreferenced.
    The grammar and punctuation issues aren't difficult to resolve but the reference issues are. I tried looking for a reference for the sentence above but I can't find one. I will come back to it. I will first finish off the improvements that I can do right now. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • No need to link common terms like "taxi".   Done
  • "The service only lasted for a few years" well, five years. A few years is not really enecylopedic.   Done
    Apart from the issue with the reference (I can't find one at the moment), the "Midland Railway extension" section is sorted. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "In 1923, the LNWR and Midland Railway, with others, were grouped into the London, Midland and Scottish Railway (LMS) by the Railways Act 1921. In 1948, the railways were nationalised and came under the control of British Railways." unreferenced.
  • Railway nationalization is a better article to link to. Even perhaps find something more specific to the UK nationalisation.   Done
  • "basic 'austerity' canopies" basic and austere are pretty much synonymous in this context, perhaps just "austere canopies..."   Done
  • "Image from..." caption is a fragment, no need full stop.   Done
  • "the West Coast Main Line modernisation programme" sea of blue. You could try "modernisation programme of the West Coast Main Line".   Done
  • "It cost £4.5 million to build[28] " move that ref to the end of the sentence.   Done
  • "Approach tracks,..." caption is a fragment so no need for a full stop.   Done
  • " for British Rail" you called this British Railways last time. And you've already linked it.   Done Removing overlinking;   Not done changing "British Railways" to "British Rail" (or vice versa) because it was "British Railways" from 1948-1965; it then changed its name to "British Rail" from 1965; accuracy is important. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "Escalators, stairs and lifts are provided to reach" sudden change of tense.   Done
  • "The station and the Pallasades were partly i..." unreferenced.
  • "lso above the station was a nine-storey office block called Ladywood House,[33] and a multi-storey car park dating from the 1970s." You make it sound as if these were spontaneously around. Presumably they were built as part of the ongoing developments?
    I don't understand what to do here. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:28, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "and was demolished to provide space for the new concourse and rebuilt" reads odd, too many "and"s.   Done
  • "on a platform at" I assume we know which platform?   Done It took a while to research but it is on Platform 7.
  • By fire service, do you mean West Midlands Fire Service or something else?
    I have to research this. I don't know which fire service; I assume it is the West Midlands Fire Service. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "than it was designed for" -> "that for which it was designed".   Done
  • "The 1960s station was redeveloped in 2010–15." unnecessary.   Done
  • "The western end of the station." fragment, no full stop.   Done
  • "A Virgin Trains Pendolino waiting at Platform 2 at New Street in 2009." fragment, no full stop.   Done
  • "The former station concourse at rush hour." fragment, no full stop.   Done
  • ""Iron Horse" sculpture." fragment, no full stop. And why in quotes? The prose has it in italics (an artwork name).   Done

Right, that's it to the end of the 1960s section. I reckon we're about 1/3 done. I haven't checked the references at this point (other than the one you added which didn't cite the PTE at all) so that should be borne in mind. I'll be doing that once we're done on the first pass. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:31, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

I also note that the DfT and PTE are still unreferenced, indeed the ref you added for DfT was removed last night. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Oh dear, the reference was removed by @Redrose64: yesterday. Sigh. This is going to be tricky. I don't know how can I add the reference in again if it is breaking the categorisation. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I have finished doing improvements for today; I will be back tomorrow to do some more. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

New Street signal box to the end of Station masters comments

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  • "The power signal box at New Street was completed in 1964.[11] The signal box is a..." no need to so rapidly repeat "signal box".   Done
  • "It is now a ..." "As of x, it is a ..."   Done
  • The whole 2010–2015 redevelopment section is a little jarring with so many very short paragraphs. It needs to flow more smoothly. - I will focus on the things that I can sort out straightaway and leave the more difficult things that need resolving to later. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "This might be blamed" POV, or according to whom?   Done I don't like POV on Wikipedia articles; completely removed that pointless POV statement and replaced it. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "New Street was voted joint" say when.   Done
  • " it was dealing with" -> "with which it was dealing"   Done
  • "The new eastern entrance to the station." fragment, no full stop.   Done
  • "A regeneration scheme was launched in 2006[52] and evolved through names such as Birmingham Gateway, Gateway Plus, and New Street Gateway. The scheme proposed complete rebuilding of the street-level buildings and refurbishment of the platforms by 2013, with track and platform level remaining essentially unchanged." odd ref placement, and where is the rest of this micro-paragraph referenced?
  • No need for the cedilla in façade. We've appropriated "facade" just fine.   Done
  • "130-metre-tall " convert.   Done
    I never ever used the convert template so I don't understand what to do. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
    The article uses that template more than 20 times, and {{convert}} is well documented. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "The new concourse, opened in 2015." remove the comma.   Done
  • "Due to the economic slowdown" which one was that?
    I don't know because the reference does not say which economic slowdown this is related to. I guess it is the 2008-2009 economic slowdown but I am just guessing; I have no source. Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:41, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "Department for Transport" link.   Done
  • "£160 million in addition to £128 million" non-breaking spaces between the numbers and the "million"   Done
  • " Department for Business Enterprise and" comma after Business.   Done
  • Why is "White Paper" capitalised?   Done
  • "The new roof seen from above." fragment so no full stop.   Done
  • "three and a half times" three-and-a-half.   Done
  • "The fact that the Gateway development leaves the railway capacity" at this point in the article it's not been developed, so perhaps this should be something like "That the proposed Gateway development would leave the railway capacity..."   Done
  • "could end up using the station" not encyclopedic in tone (end up).   Done
  • "if the station could not be adapted, the government needed to look for alternative solutions" so what happened?   Done
  • "the Grand Central shopping centre opened on the 24th" -> "the Grand Central shopping centre four days later"   Done
  • "Grand Central" overlinked.   Done
  • "new John Lewis store" usually call those shops in the UK.   Not done
    I don't understand that to do here. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
    The request as I understand it is to use "shop" instead of "store"; however I would not recommend this as while yes John Lewis is a shop, it is a department store, and calling it such is perfectly acceptable. -mattbuck (Talk) 22:39, 2 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, John Lewis is a "department store" so it is correct to call it a "store" and not a "shop". Therefore,   Not done and it will stay as "John Lewis store". Pkbwcgs (talk) 08:43, 3 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
    Actually it's a "department store" not a "store", so I've   Done it and changed it to "John Lewis department store". Considering the other issues, I think we've spent far too long on this point. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • Not all entries in the station master list are cited.
  • Spaced hyphens for year ranges should be unspaced en-dashes.   Done
  • I haven't looked at the "Railway lines in the West Midlands" template yet, but I'll do that as part of my next section of comments.

We're now at Operations, approximately 60% of the way through I think! I'll do that section as my next review pass. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Operations

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Oh dear, "operations" is going to be a tricky section to deal with. The sourcing is very poor. One thing I am worst at is looking for sources and references. I suspect that there will be loads and loads to improve in that section. Sigh. Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:26, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Well it's your call. I'm more than happy to go through the section and note what's missing/erroneous/could be improved, but it takes me time to do so. If you're prepared to act on the advice then I'll do it, otherwise it seems like a waste of my time. No stress. Let me know. Cheers, The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:29, 20 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I will keep this review going on; I have not forgotten about it; I am just really busy and working hours and hours on weekdays so it is really tricky to focus on this review but I am trying my best to make progress in this review. If weekdays are tricky, weekends are always possible for me to be making improvements and making progress in this review. Pkbwcgs (talk) 16:20, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Pkbwcgs please don't be stressed about this. I'm happy to keep going and there's literally no deadline. In my mind the only deadline is if you aren't interested in continuing. And you said you are, so we'll carry on. And please, remember this is just Wikipedia, no need to worry too hard about getting back to me. Worst case scenario is to give me a shout if you can if you think you can't continue. I'll review the next section tomorrow. Cheers, all the best to you. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:31, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the reply. I will do my best to keep making progress on this. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:41, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Pkbwcgs no worries, and I will do my best to keep working with you to get this up to scratch! More tomorrow my friend. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Here we go:

  • "Around 80% of train services to Birmingham go through New Street.[11]" ref is dead but was last accessed in 2009, is this 80% still true, and can you ref it?
  • "The other major... " unreferenced.   Done
  • "The station is one of seventeen operated and managed by Network Rail.[75]" this is a 2013 document. Is it still the same for 2020? -   Done No; the number of stations managed by Network Rail is 20; Category:Network Rail managed stations. Pkbwcgs (talk) 15:51, 23 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
  • "Network Rail also provides operational staff for the station." unref.
  • "Station staff are provided on all pla.." repetitive and unref.
  • "Right Away (RA) indicators. RA indicators " repetitive.   Done
  • "For operational reasons all " unref.
  • "RA indicators display a signal i" unref.
  • The remainder of this subsection is entirely unreferenced.
  • "(a end) " what does that mean?
  • "the current[when?] rebuild. " needs resolution.
  • " the IATA location identifier QQN." avoid inline external links.
  • "of the several tunnels" looks like six.
  • "Customer service and ticketing" section is unreferenced.
  • Ref 77 doesn't seem to back up any claim made in the pollution section. (NB, I haven't checked pretty much any of the refs yet).
  • "Train operating companies" section is unreferenced and Avanti Trains is overlinked.

A lot to deal with there in terms of referencing as you already identified. I didn't spend too long on the prose in this section as I suspect some of it will need to change depending on the sources you might find. Good luck, and ping me when you've finished this (and any of the other outstanding issues from the previous review segments). Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:14, 23 April 2020 (UTC)Reply

Pkbwcgs how's it going? I haven't seen any progress on this for a few days, are you still intending to address these initial comments? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:41, 27 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I would spend time on this but I am very, very busy at the moment so it is quite tricky for me. I will try to address the initial comments. Search for references and sources is time-consuming and it does take hours to do so and I currently don't have hours to be able to search deeply for sources which is why it is quite tricky for me. I am trying my best; I am not able to find much time nowadays which is why I am not editing Wikipedia as much as I used to do but I hope I can find time to continue improve the article. Pkbwcgs (talk) 11:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Pkbwcgs well perhaps there's no need to continue this particular nomination. There's still plenty to fix and no WP:DEADLINE so maybe we should close this and allow you as long as you need to address the issues before renominating? Let me know what you think. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I do want to continue the nomination; the biggest problem for me right now is finding the time to actually sit down and go through each comment and somehow address it. Things like finding sources takes hours; it has to be a reliable source and it has to address and support what is being said in the article and there is huge disappointment when I can't find any proper sources and it is not good and acceptable for me to just remove unsourced content. Any help will be welcome and much appreciated. Thanks. Pkbwcgs (talk) 15:25, 27 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
Pkbwcgs you could ask for help from people at the UK railways wikiproject, I'm not sure how much Ritchie333 for example is doing these days but he's always very helpful. Bottom line for this nomination is that I can't keep it open forever if progress isn't being made. It's by no means terminal to close it down, work on all the unresolved issues, and then renominate later. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:27, 28 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
I have requested for help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_Railways#Help_with_Talk:Birmingham_New_Street_railway_station/GA1; I apologise that due to me being extremely busy, I was not able to do any improvements. I am currently very tight with the amount of time I have so making improvements and spending hours to find sources and references is very tricky and difficult for me. Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
Pkbwcgs understood. There's no major issue with this being closed while you wait for more time to spend on it. Either way, let me know. If the nomination remains open for too long without resolution I'll have to close it. But when you have the time, you can just start a new one. Cheers, take care. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:57, 2 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Closure

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I'm going to close this as unsuccessful. There was clearly a huge amount of work to do when this was initially nominated and while the article has been improved, it's still not close to GA standards and it appears that the nominator currently does not have the availability to address the myriad concerns. I would strongly recommend that all the comments I've made so far are double-checked and the spirit of the comments are applied to the rest of the article. There's not much point in nominating articles which have large sections of unreferenced text so that most definitely needs to be addressed before renominating. Any further questions, don't hesitate to drop me a line. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Apologies. I tried to seek help at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways but no one responded; I currently don't have the time; I am currently far too busy so I don't have time to be spending hours finding references. I agree that it does need more references but it understandable takes a long time to look for references and I don't have that time. Pkbwcgs (talk) 11:26, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
No worries, just take your time if you're still interested, and renominate when all the various issues above (and those of a similar nature in the areas I didn't review) have been resolved. It's a shame that you got no help from the Wikiproject, especially as this is a deemed to be mid/top importance article. Good luck, and let me know if I can help in the future. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:07, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
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