Talk:Biscotti

Number

Are there any theories as why we tend to import Italian food words into English in the plural form: biscotti, porcini, panini, etc? Let alone all the pasta shapes—though there you could argue, I suppose, that a spaghetto is not much use to a cook. —Ian Spackman 16:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm answering ten years later! Because that's how we come across these words, as plurals on packets of penne, spaghetti, biscotti, porcini etc. Another interesting question would be why we are unconscious that the names of pasta shapes are plurals and use them as singulars ("When the spaghetti is cooked..."). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo (talk • contribs) 10:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Gosh, just one year later than Campolongo (and 11 after Ian Spackman! "Spaghetti", "ravioli", etc. aren't singular in English, but numberless: they have no plurals. Do we ever say "spaghettis" or "raviolis"? Only when we mean different kinds of spaghetti or of ravioli. They're what we call mass nouns or "non-count nouns". --Thnidu (talk) 06:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I've certainly heard raviolis in the U.S., and just last week cannolis. The curious one of late in terms of source is panini, as they/it do not normally come prepackaged with a plural label such as spaghetti, ravioli, etc. But sure enough, panini is the default form in North America, and is treated as singular rather than non-count, so that the normal plural is paninis. And then there's the reverse, the label lasagne anglicized to a singular in form, lasagna. 2600:8800:A400:37E0:3543:F1FF:AEA0:1491 (talk) 13:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ian Spackman: I don't know the reason, but I think an American would be annoyed if from July 19, 2024, we wrote "United States of Americas", with "s" ;) JacktheBrown (talk) 05:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

It's already plural. Drsruli (talk) 05:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Word Edit

Took out the second "traditionally" in the first paragraph. It appears too quickly after the first.

Italian or Catalan origin?

Cantuccini appears to be identical or similar to the traditional Catalan carquinyolis. Are there any reliable sources about the origin of this cookie? Perhaps Italy or Spain/Catalonia? Libido 21:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I have merged Carquinyoli into this article. --Una Smith (talk) 01:02, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Wireless telecommunications concept

I removed the following addition as it has no source. If it is accurate, significant, and can be sourced, it should probably become a separate article.

The term "Biscotti" also refers to a new wireless telecommunications concept: a network side cookie (see HTTP_cookie). In the internet/computer world user tracking is achieved by putting a small piece of code on the consumer’s hardware. In a mobile environment the traditional cookie ecosystem does not work. Carriers are masking traffic, mobile browses do not support cookies, and much of the true analysis is hidden behind carrier firewalls. A biscotti refers to a network side cookie that is monitored and administered by the network operator.

—Ian Spackman (talk) 04:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Source for Pliny on Biscotti

There is a widely cited association of Pliny the Elder with Biscotti, but I have not been able to find a citation to any specific passage in Pliny. For a discussion see this blog entry. It seems that the present claim that "Pliny the Elder boasted that such goods would be edible for centuries" needs to be qualified unless a reliable source can be found. It may be significant that this claim is not found in the parallel articles in the other Western European wikipedias. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 19:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I've removed it. I'd also note that numerous newspapers and other websites have published recipes with reference to this factoid, likely referenced without attribution to this WP article. None of these should be used as a reference unless they pre-date this article's first mention, or have unambiguous supporting citations. Mindmatrix 22:01, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Why is this called "Biscotti"?

"Biscotto" is the italian word for "cookie" - as in, any type of cookie. Why this specific cookie is named after the generic word for it? 82.111.146.18 (talk) 09:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Who knows? But the reason isn't essential to the article. --Thnidu (talk) 06:19, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

British vs. American usage

Pepperbeast has reverted an edit of mine in § Name as "unnecessary". Rather than edit warring I am raising the subject for discussion here, where Pepperbeast can respond and others can comment.

Here is the paragraph as it was before my edit and as it is now, after the reversion; the sentences on a grey background are not involved in the reversion and do not affect its meaning:

The word biscotti, in this sense, shares its origin with the British English word "biscuit", which describes what American English-speakers refer to as a "cookie". In modern Italian, the word biscotti refers to any cookie or cracker, just as does the British use of the word "biscuit". The number of bakings or hardness is not relevant to the term. In America, the term "biscotti" refers only to the specific Italian cookie.

Here is my version, which I summarized as Balance descriptions of the British and American senses of the word "biscuit":

The word biscotti, in this sense, shares its origin with the English word "biscuit", which in British English refers to what American English-speakers call a "cookie", and in American English typically refers to a soft, leavened quick bread (see Biscuit (bread)). In modern Italian, the word biscotti refers to any cookie or cracker, just as does the British use of the word "biscuit". The number of bakings or hardness is not relevant to the term. In America, the term "biscotti" refers only to the specific Italian cookie.

If the British sense of the word "biscuit" is worth mentioning, the American one is also. My edit covers both dialects in a balanced manner.

Further down, and not involved in the reversion, the one-sentence subsection History: North America defines the "North American" use of "biscotti" differently, and wrongly:

In North America, where "biscuit" has taken on other meanings, any twice-baked cookies are likely to be known as biscotti.

In my almost seventy years I have lived in New York, Massachusetts, Berkeley, and Philadelphia, and I have never heard "biscotti" used for anything but "twice-baked, oblong-shaped, dry, crunchy" baked goods. (I can't speak for any part of Canada.) Merriam-Webster defines thus:

Definition of biscotto

plural biscotti

a crisp cookie or biscuit of Italian origin that is flavored usually with anise and filberts or almonds —usually used in plural

I'm editing that subsection to match.

--Thnidu (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

What I think is unnecessary is the comment " and in American English typically refers to a soft, leavened quick bread (see Biscuit (bread))". It's irrelevant. PepperBeast (talk) 18:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, pepperbeast, on rereading & reconsideration I guess I have to agree with you there. It's too many steps away from the topic. --Thnidu (talk) 03:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 19 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) EggRoll97 ^(talk) 06:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

---

Biscotti → cantucci – this page (including the images) refers to "cantucci" (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantuccio), not to "biscotti" (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscotto). Given that in Italy there are different types of biscotti, it's profoundly wrong to refer only to cantucci on a page with a name that includes all types of biscotti in Italy; if a group of non-Italians people go to Italy and ask for a biscotto, they don't just get cantucci. In conclusion, this page isn't very encyclopedic at the moment. JacktheBrown (talk) 06:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. In English, "biscotti" means the same as what "cantucci" means in Italian. Just as the article on Anime does not cover all animation from around the world (even though that is what the term means in Japanese), we shouldn't be following the Italian meaning of "biscotti". -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 09:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. In English, biscotti is the normal term. It doesn't matter what it means in Italian.WP:COMMONNAME, WP:ESTABLISHED. PepperBeast (talk) 12:04, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
  • @Pepperbeast: so if you want to refer to another Italian biscotto, what do you say? Do you use the term biscotto for everything? JacktheBrown (talk) 19:47, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
    • What does that have to do with the substance of this discussion? You seem to think you can use Wikipedia as some sort of tool to force English speakers to use Italian loanwords the same way they are used in Italian, but that's simply not how loanwords work, and it doesn't change article-naming policy. PepperBeast (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
      • @Pepperbeast: no, I only asked one thing. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

      And you have your answer. What I call other kinds of Italian biscuits when speaking English is totally irrelevant. PepperBeast (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per King of Hearts. AVNOJ1989 (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is English Wikipedia and this is what Biscotti means in the English-speaking world. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per the above comments. I'm also not thrilled that the nominator edited the article to reflect his POV prior to requesting the move. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 15:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
  • @Jessintime: I only changed the caption in the infobox, for consistency, since all the captions contain "cantucci" or "cantuccini" instead of "biscotti"; before accusing me, please check, thank you. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.