Talk:Bitcoin Cash/Archive 10

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bitcoin cash bias concerns

I have read through all archives and can see that there has certainly been a lot of contention surrounding the bitcoin cash lead and content... I apologize for trying to "flog a dead horse" here, but I would just like to suggest some improvements for the bitcoin cash lead and article content as a whole, and propose a possible re-visit to the topic to amend it to seem a little less biased and more informative. I have come to learn from the archives that there are two separate schools of thought between the original bitcoin and bitcoin cash, with there being much debate surrounding the duality between the two. I noticed a large amount of bias towards bitcoin cash, particularly in archive two, however I think in an attempt to prevent such biases, this article has gone the other way and appears slightly biased in the opposite direction. Below is the lead from bitcoin gold, it reads:

Bitcoin Gold (BTG) is a cryptocurrency. It is a hard fork of Bitcoin, the open source cryptocurrency. It is an open source, decentralized digital currency without a central bank or intermediary that can be sent from user to user on the peer-to-peer Bitcoin Gold network. The stated purpose of the hard fork is to change the proof of work algorithm so that ASICs (Application-Specific Integrated Circuits) which are used to mine Bitcoin cannot be used to mine the Bitcoin Gold blockchain in the hopes that enabling mining on commonly available graphics cards will democratize and decentralize the mining and distribution of the cryptocurrency. The project began as a community-driven effort with six co-founders, half of whom continue to serve on the project's Board (including Lead Developer, Hang Yin.)

Comparing this (which only has one source) to the bitcoin cash lead, which has several, it seems much more neutral, as well as more detailed and descriptive... nowhere is it mentioned that bitcoin gold is a spin off or alt-coin - with that being said I do not care either way if bitcoin cash is labeled as a spin off or as an alt-coin, but I think the inclusion of "spin-off" may be a bit unnecessary as the point is easily made that it is not the original bitcoin by the term "alt-coin" in the preceding text; either one will do but I think having both is excessive, its like saying “fire is scorching and hot.” I also think the article could benefit from a more substantive and descriptive lead.

Further, the only source for the bitcoin gold lead is... from the bitcoin gold website...? So there seems to be significant inconsistency in how the sourcing requirements are applied in crypto atricles. With this, I do not propose that bitcoin cash should be framed as being "the original bitcoin" or I do really care whether or not we should remove entirely the mention of "bcash, btrash" - but I do not really see how these opinions are necessary to the article as a whole, whether it be the opinion of supporters or detractors, as these are simply opinions and have no real bearing on the real facts

My proposals to improve this article are:

- Amend the lead to be more descriptive and more neutral

- I do not see why we mention bitcoin cash is sometimes referred to as Bcash, then in the very next sentence have it that detractors refer to it as Bcash... it reads a little excessive and repetitive, and feels poorly written. The nature of this alt-name judging from the archives is that the term Bcash is used as an insult, so the article should reflect this, rather than potentially confusing readers in that... is it sometimes referred to as Bcash by supporters as well? Otherwise why is it mentioned in two different contexts?

- The article states that "...large block supporters find it acceptable that (due to large block sizes), nodes might only be run by universities, private companies and non-profits." While the original article states that "...some bcash supporters are fine with a smaller group of well-funded hosts taking on the majority of nodes." - this may not amount to piped text, but it is slightly inconsistent with the material. I think this line should be amended to better reflect the source, something along the lines of "...some bitcoin cash supports have no issue with smaller, well-funded parties hosting the majority of nodes" to better reflect the content of the source - to say that "nodes might only be run by universities, private companies, and non-profits" is not only false, but is also taken out of context from what the source itself states in its text

- I think it is important to mention that BSV was the result of a hardfork from bitcoin cash, but I don't think we should basically have a BSV stub within the bitcoin cash article. Considering the Bitcoin Gold article stands on its own away from the Bitcoin article, I think it is reasonable to establish an independent BSV page. I have found all of these sources which provide an even stronger standing for the creation of a BSV page than the BTG sources which are sufficient for the standing of the Bitcoin Gold article.

https://www.ft.com/content/900d738d-c75f-32bd-b208-1c942fdb9de9

https://www.ft.com/content/79796bb5-ddb3-350f-9978-990b8e768a34

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-14/bitcoin-offshoot-doubles-after-supposed-creator-wins-legal-delay

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/bitcoin-offshoots-surge-after-would-be-satoshi-nakamoto-filing

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-04/crypto-coin-bitcoin-sv-appears-to-have-suffered-a-51-attack

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/bitcoin-inventor-craig-wright-defamation-cryptocurrency-vitalik-buterin-a8970436.html

https://edition.cnn.com/business/newsfeeds/prnewswire/202008061659PR_NEWS_USPR_____VA85664.html

https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/15/coinbase-users-can-now-withdraw-bitcoin-sv-following-bch-fork/

https://www.cnbctv18.com/cryptocurrency/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-sv-crypto-cryptocurrency-differences-explained-15656191.htm

https://fortune.com/crypto/2024/03/15/craig-wright-fake-satoshi-nakamoto-exposed/

https://www.engadget.com/2018-12-20-cryptocurrency-year-in-review-loser.html Artem P75 (talk) 23:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not contested -> proposal 3 implemented. Will work on others and seek comments again before submission Artem P75 (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

A work in progress for the creation of the BSV page can be found in my sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Artem_P75/sandbox

It is far from finished and needs a restructure of the content / additional content, but any feedback is welcome. Please feel free to edit the page and add information - I would like this to be a collaborative effort to get a BSV page standing on its own Artem P75 (talk) 00:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• Hi, i reverted this change here in which you summarized an interview into wikivoice. We dont do this. If you wanted to add the interview or quote, they refer to some person named Rizun, we would need to determine if the viewpoint of Rizun should be given due weight. Here is the source you used ibtimes. The other changes you propose are unclear, please provide change A to B format. Regarding your comparison to bitcoin gold, that is WP:OSE. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Note that International Business Times is not a reliable source and generally should not be cited. See WP:IBTIMES. Grayfell (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf I don't understand your revert. The current line is inaccurate. It currently states: "while some large block supporters find it acceptable that (due to large block sizes), nodes might only be run by universities, private companies and nonprofits."

This is not an accurate representation of the article. Article has the above line specified from specifically Peter Rizun. The line referencing Bitcoin Cash supporters is the following: "But some bcash supporters are fine with a smaller group of well-funded hosts taking on the majority of nodes." ILoveFinance (talk) 22:31, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, the cited source is not reliable. Because of that I've removed that source and the accompanying section. To restate what I've said before on this talk page, what is and is not "a key difference of opinion" on this topic should be decided by reliable sources. Grayfell (talk) 23:00, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok with removal since considered reliable. For clarity, I commented on Jt's reversion being improper, not the need to keep this line. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:05, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I was not aware of WP:OSE, I will keep topics separate to bitcoin cash out of this talk page. I do not mind that the IBtimes reference has been removed if not in line with the crypto sourcing policy - my intention in respect to that was to amend the text of the article to be more inline with the source, however with the source being removed, it is now an irrelevant point. My other proposals are:

Proposal A

Create a separate page for BSV using the sources I provided above, as well as others. We could then have a BSV page of its own and remove the BSV stub from this article, effectively tidying this one up and resulting in a cleaner bitcoin cash article. A work in progress can be found at my sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Artem_P75/sandbox

It has currently been reviewed, and I would like if others could review and add points with references which can be used to create a final page to be submitted as a draft - as it currently stands it is certainly nowhere close to being sufficient for submission

Proposal B

Is to do with the opinions of detractors and supporters, and the bcash, btrash, a scam / viewed as the pure form of bitcoin. I noticed through the archives that this was contentious as some editors wanted to include celebrity endorsements. I do not really think this is information befitting an encyclopedia, and feels more like community bickering. I see how the opinion of the detractors is balanced by the opinion of supporters, but I do not think the reader should be influenced either way by the opinions of others - it may be factual that detractors refer to it as XYZ and that supporters view it as XYZ, but it is not factual that it is a scam, and it is not factual that it is the pure form of bitcoin - these are just varying perspectives, that, to an uninformed reader, can create confusion, and appears to me to reinforce that there are "teams" in this... debate? That it is then for the reader to decide where they sit on the issue. The article should just portray the facts of what the cryptocurrency is without opinions on what it is being inserted.

I do have some thoughts on the lead and some other content as well, although I noticed this was a topic of very heavy contention so for the moment I will focus on other areas and come back to this once I feel as though I can propose a clear and adequate alternative to the current lead and the remaining article content,

Thank you Artem P75 (talk) 06:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

First as a matter of housekeeping, I would suggest to create new sections (or sub-sections) to discuss these in the future. It starts to get unwieldy when new topics are added to an existing section. You can create a new talk page section with == before and after the name or a sub-section by using ===

Next, about the BSV (your proposal A) article I did look at your sandbox and it looks like a good start. I would suggest to try to find more sources and more content to build out the article. This subject has been covered to some degree in the press, but maybe or maybe not sufficiently for a stand alone wikipedia article. You might also try to look in google books for some more content. Think about improving the WP:DEPTH of the article. A crypto article might be looked at similarly to WP:NCORP, just my guess, but might help you to achieve this end.

Next, your proposal B, what are you seeking to do here? Are you seeking to remove the Bcash content? It is very well sourced, I dont think this is going to be removed. You have to remember that at wikipedia we cover the past, or history. This subject of this bitcoin cash exists (to my understanding) as a result of a disagreement in how to solve the Bitcoin scalability problem so for us to pretend there was no disagreement (or teams as you refer to) then we would not be covering the history of the event. It would be like covering US politics and pretending there was no Blue and Red teams or UK politics and there was no parties, etc. At wikipedia we will just cover what the sources tell us to cover, no more or less.

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions, I will keep this in mind moving forward. I will continue to work on gathering sources for a BSV article and take your suggestions onboard. I see your point in relation to the history with the comparison to politics - in this case then I have some thought on making the "Controversy" section more comprehensive - as it stands now it seems to just be occupied by different opinions and perspectives, with the exception of just the first two sentences...

However, sourcing under the stricter crypto requirements seems to be difficult, so I will continue trying to find reliable sources before making any further proposals.

Thank you Artem P75 (talk) 23:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Generally controversy and/or criticism sections on articles are discouraged, see WP:NOCRIT, there might be a similar page about controversy. Generally speaking it should be integrated throughout the article, rather than creating a section for it. I think we can infer the same for controversy (if there really is even one?). In the case of this article the entire subject is one of controversy, as the history relates to the dispute called the block size wars that spawned this coin. So I don't think it would be very useful to try to create a section to imply anything is especially controversial, as it isn't. Even the bcash name is no longer controversial. You are correct this article is sparse, but it wont be improved by removing reactions of the pundits when the fork occurred. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:RS Clarification for this/other Bitcoin Articles - Books written specifically about Bitcoin

I have not seen them sighted, but have also not seen information specifically regarding them, so want to create the trail here for clarification.

Are books written specifically about Bitcoin/events relating to it considered WP:RS? For instance, The Bitcoin Standard, Hijacking Bitcoin, and The Blocksize Wars? ILoveFinance (talk) 15:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

It depends, is always the answer. "Hijacking Bitcoin" by Roger Ver would not be an RS on this article for something in wikivoice, due the obvious WP:COI. Maybe one statement by Roger could be useful (attributed to him), but you will have to see if other editors agree with what you propose. Also note that there would be a limit to how much content we would add from any single source to avoid weight issues. For books we generally want to see that they are done with a real known publisher, we wont accept self published works or amazon ebooks. Probably also someone known in the industry. If the author has a wikipedia page, you know there is a higher chance we will include it (unless the wikipedia page shows they are crypto bro, like Roger or CZ, then it wouldnt be kosher). Anyhow, that is my opinion and feel free to propose what you want see what others say. But I think someone like Nathaniel Popper of NYT and other similar quality works would be welcome. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense overall. I've read all three, and they all have content that could make sense to include in one area or another. Hijacking Bitcoin, as this would no doubt be the most controversial of the three due to COI, while no doubt it is written by Ver and Patterson, is more grounded in fact than narrative (not to say no narrative exists). There are about 20 pages of sources at the end, all footnoted throughout the text.

I don't know what would make sense at this time, but I figure if any of the books contain something relevant to a section/otherwise, as long as it is something that itself is cited in the book, should be less contentious. Agree or disagree here? If too broad as is, if something comes to mind, I'll post here.

If you mean content itself should not be included, other than a statement attributed directly to Ver, then understood on that front as well. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I would need to see the proposed text first to comment, again it depends. Regarding Ver's book, remember that Ver and Jihan Wu are essentially considered to be the creators of Bitcoin Cash, thus using this source is largely going to be WP:PRIMARY and WP:COI as it relates to this article, the scaling debate, Bitcoin, or related articles. Look for books that have a reputable neutral author such as Nathaniel Popper. Lump on top Ver's current legal situation might not lend towards Ver's credibility in the eyes of wikipedia editors. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure thing.

Just as an FYI, Ver and Wu did not create Bitcoin Cash. Ver did not "join" Bitcoin Cash until after SegWit2x failed. He did provide funding to start a number of other projects, though, such as bitpay, blockchain.com, kraken, Dash (cryptocurrentcy), etc. -- Could you share the WP:RS sources supporting your claim? Otherwise, that is introducing a false narrative that is detrimental to this and other articles. Let's remain clear -- if COI because he was an avid supporter of Bitcoin Cash, that's one thing. If COI because he "created" (false), then that's another. Same for PRIMARY.

Why are we referencing Wu again? I'm not bringing him up. It is commonly known Wu was a very early supporter of increased block sizes, though for most recent prior to split ref New York Agreement. He also did not create Bitcoin Cash so the same thoughts from above apply. ILoveFinance (talk) 15:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

LEAD changes

@ILoveFinance: you made a wholesale change to the LEAD, which I reverted here. Please be advised that the MOS:LEAD summarizes the article and does not introduce new concepts. Please discuss here what you are trying to do. In this earlier edit you removed a sentence from the LEAD. I will also leave a note on your talk page about this. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:33, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Your series of reverts claim inaccuracy and make false claims.

Your revert of the LEAD change has two claims (listed here/on my talk page) which I will address below:

1. I removed the mention of BSV for some "odd" reason and what I claimed I changed was "not accurate" Incorrect. I moved it to the History section, right above the XEC split, which is the proper place for that sentence to belong. That keeps the History section in order of events by date, and has the two contested hard fork chain splits listed together. The line was not removed, it was moved. This no doubt improves readability.
2. I introduced "odd" concepts not supported by the article Please specifically state where this/what was done? The lines used are supported by the sources in the article. I am curious to see what you suggest is not accurate/supported.

As for other reverts without any reason listed other than "not an improvement" -- can you please be more descriptive?

ILoveFinance (talk) 11:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

We dont remove things from the lead to put them in the body. You have made comments on this talk page seeking to remove the mention of BSV from this article (and when that didnt fly) and you instead removed it from the LEAD using an edit summary that didnt accurately reflect what you were doing. Be advised of WP:SUMMARYNO. When there is an article that discusses two topics, in this case two forks of bitcoin called BCH and BSV, it is not ok to remove mention of one of those with a misleading edit summary, in what is effectively Wikipedia:Blanking (as the lead is so small). Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Because I am engaging in discussion for things that appear to be large changes. Did I remove it? No. Just moved it.

Ok, so BSV is an article within the BCH article, thereby it should be in the summary. That is more understandable. Reason for "as the lead is so small" seems an odd reason particularly as the link you reference "WP:SUMMARYNO" says "Avoid long summaries."

Can you please describe how the other wording changes in the lead are inaccurate? If they are not, I will revert your revert, but keep BSV mentioned in the lead in. The edit is a very clearly accurate description of what occurred providing helpful context that the blockchains are shared up until 1 August 2017. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, again, (though this is mentioned on my talk page) it was moved exactly as per my edit comment. Please do not make false claims. If you are instead stating that I should have been even more descriptive, rather than claiming I was intentionally misleading, that's different, but something important to specify. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Please leave accurate edit summaries. Please also dont remove things from the lead and place them in the body of the article. You have made numerous requests on this talk page to remove the BSV content from this article. The BSV content belongs on this article as it has nowhere else to go and thus it will continue to be summarized in the LEAD, as that is what the lead does, it summarizes. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you please comment on the reversion of the other changes I made to the lead? Those were very accurate. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The changes you made to the lead were not constructive. What specifically are you wanting to change and why? I've already explain about the "split" and the removal of the BSV. Did you have any other changes? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Please read what you removed in the summary. As stated, for further accuracy and edification of any reader. As you are the one reverting, the onus is on you to read the changes and state specifically what is not correct. Please review what I had changed and clarify specifically why it was reverted. Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way, how many times do you edit/delete your responses? 4 times each for the most recent 2 responses. Generally each notification I get is complemented by an additional at least. Really clutters my notifications. ILoveFinance (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Please refer to WP:ONUS which states the ONUS is upon you to find a new consensus to override long standing consensus on many of the contentious items you seek to change. I apologize, I now notice that your changes are more comprehensive than I had initially noticed, however the reason for my revert stands, it is based upon ONUS. Most of these items you are seeking to edit appear to be WP:PROMO in nature and most have been discussed in the past and you will need to demonstrate with new sources why those should change. You can find those discussions in the talk page archives, and link to that. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You must back up "content[ion]," not just claim. BSV mention? Fair enough at this time. The other changes to LEAD, please describe.

Please specify exactly, as I have already requested, how specifically the changes to the initial part of LEAD "appear to be WP:PROMO." You are simply making a baseless claim at this time. And as I have stated, the information included is supported by the sources currently included in the article. The sources specifically mention that there is a split, blockchains shared until the hard fork point, etc. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Let me make it easy for you on supporting information from existing sources. Per Footnote 10 (WSJ):

"How is Bitcoin Cash Different from bitcoin?

In most respects, it is similar to bitcoin. It works the same way, and it has the exact same transaction history as the original bitcoin, up to Aug. 1, 2017. Its primary difference is that it is designed to allow more transactions to pass through, on a per-second basis, than bitcoin, which leads to lower user fees. And, of course, because it is a different market, Bitcoin Cash’s price moves independent of bitcoin itself."

I don't need to specifically call out the rest of the support from the existing sources, the ONUS is on you to do that if you claim they are PROMO or are factually not accurate per sources.

Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, re-reviewing your reversion of 5 of my edits, please provide specific basis for each reversion. I added other critical details or minor clarifications/abbreviations (all supported by sources, by the way). If you do not have basis for the reversions, please undo your edit. Or, be specific as to which you are objecting to and on what basis. Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 00:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

What about "Footnote 10 (WSJ)" are referring to specifically? Please provide here on talk, suggest to use 'want to change A to B' and the sources for it are xyz. The article says (in relation to the reference No 10 that I am guessing you are referring to) presently says: "Bitcoin Cash is a spin-off or altcoin that was created in 2017." Are you hoping to edit this summary in the LEAD or do something else? Thanks Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

You can read what I wrote. The history is there. I have also quoted a specific part of Footnote 10. Please stop failing basic reading comprehension (as you yourself admitted you failed to do).

As I have repeated ad nauseam, you need to specifically state, for every reversion (not just the lead), why you reverted it. You have thus far primarily made wide-stroking and baseless claims. Please specify. This filibustering is not productive. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

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You also willfully ignore the multitude of points I make and broad stroke...is it in hope that I forget about the other points?

To list out a couple of the main points (with plenty of context above that you can read if you choose not to ignore it (as again, you admitted yourself to not doing)):

1. The changes to the initial part of lead were more accurate and supported by the very sources included. -- no reason given for removal
2. The changes to the body included important accuracy tweaks (from the very same sources) and more minor text cleanup. -- no reason given for removal
3. You claim PROMO -- no reason given for this

I still await your response to these and others throughout. I have even provided specific quotes from the very sources.

At this time, with your responses that do not in the slightest address what is written, it appears as though you may be engaging in WP:PROMO through your obstruction of improvements supported directly by the existing sources.

I sincerely hope that this is a big misunderstanding-that you are swamped by notifications/otherwise and are accidentally missing the numerous responses I have given that already answer/address the questions you have asked-and you can go back and review what has already been written both in the history and in this very Talk page and come back with an appropriate response.

Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I cant understand what you are proposing here. Please provide a concrete proposal. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Since reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, please see below specifically regarding the LEAD:

Bitcoin Cash is a cryptocurrency that continues a chain of blocks from the first Bitcoin block in 2009. Notably, a split occurred in the chain between Bitcoin (BTC) and Bitcoin Cash (BCH) on 1 August 2017. Bitcoin Cash is often considered an altcoin. ILoveFinance (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Be advised of Talk:Bitcoin_Cash/Archive_6#RfC:_Shall_Bitcoin_Cash_be_characterized_as_a_software_fork_of_bitcoin_in_the_first_sentence_of_the_lead_section?, thus at this time we are calling it a fork and not a split. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, revised below. Seems like a simple solution. Bar no other controversy, I will make the edit.

Bitcoin Cash is a cryptocurrency that continues a chain of blocks from the first Bitcoin block in 2009. Notably, a fork occurred in the chain between Bitcoin (BTC) and Bitcoin Cash (BCH) on 1 August 2017. Bitcoin Cash is often considered an altcoin. ILoveFinance (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Not OK for many reasons, all well documented in the talk archives. Be advised of WP:BURDEN (which is also found at the top of this talk page) and WP:NOTADVERT. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Please specify specifically those reasons. Nothing barring the rewrite is documented anywhere in the archives. ILoveFinance (talk) 11:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The MOS:LEAD summarizes. You have to provide sources per BURDEN. Be aware of WP:BLUDGEON. Thanks Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:54, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I stated clearly. Above. Which you still willfully ignore. -- For your benefit: the existing sources

I quoted the article for you. I am not using any new sources as they are not necessary. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, for your benefit, let me requote the article for Source 10 which I already have done above:

"In most respects, it is similar to bitcoin. It works the same way, and it has the exact same transaction history as the original bitcoin, up to Aug. 1, 2017. Its primary difference is that it is designed to allow more transactions to pass through, on a per-second basis, than bitcoin, which leads to lower user fees. And, of course, because it is a different market, Bitcoin Cash’s price moves independent of bitcoin itself."

As you can clearly see (unless you choose to ignore it again), I am using what is in the article already cited in the first/second sentence of the lead.

Please, again, state specifically why this is not "OK." Thanks :) ILoveFinance (talk) 13:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You have reopened your lead change suggestions in the section below, so I have responded there. The fact that one source says it has the same transaction history (a copy of the database) until a certain date doesnt mean it is the same thing, it is not and adding this to the lead is undue. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Continuing from/responding to the below:

Not re-opening when never closed, for clarity.

I dislike your association of me pushing a narrative.

I'm perfectly fine not including BTC/BCH, I only considered it to be additional information. In retrospect, I agree with you here, it could be misconstrued and is unnecessary information.

"To [your] understanding" is not enough. Status quo of article is another thing, better than your "understanding," but also as you've said previously (I will need to dig this up), this article could be in better shape.

One source is claim. Ok, well let me provide another that I would include. This meets the higher WP:RS standard: https://www.cnbctv18.com/cryptocurrency/a-list-of-bitcoin-forks-and-how-they-have-changed-the-network-13318902.htm -- Please notate this quote: "The fork was split from the main blockchain in August of 2017."

I can dig up additional, but in the meantime, how about we rework the phrasing a bit more. I have a revised version of the proposal at the bottom of this comment. In the meantime, let me continue responding to your points.

This article in numerous places is a barely re-written section of sourced articles. I state this because many areas require rework. Grayfell noted this himself.

Now time for the revised suggestion:

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Bitcoin Cash is a cryptocurrency that shares a chain of blocks from the first Bitcoin block in 2009. Notably, a fork occurred in the chain due to disagreement regarding scaling solutions resulting in Bitcoin Cash's creation on 1 August 2017. Bitcoin Cash is often considered an altcoin. [10][11][CNBC source to be added here] Bitcoin Cash is sometimes referred to as "BCash." [32]

In November 2018, Bitcoin Cash experienced a contested hard fork where the project split into two cryptocurrencies: Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV ("BSV"). [12]

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Let me know your thoughts about this revision.

Thanks! (not sarcastic at all, just happy we are having a productive conversation now!) ILoveFinance (talk) 22:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

WP: NOPIPE regarding your desire in the lead renaming changing blockchain to piped nonsense 'share a chain of blocks,' 'chain of blocks to share something', etc xyz. This is all WP:PROMO attempting to reference some sort of false historical value. Bitcoin Cash is a blockchain, and it might have shared a history prior to the creation of this article subject (and by very nature prior to the creation of the scope of this article), so it doesnt matter (certainly not in a manner that is sufficient weight for the lead). We have the fork article to discuss what a hard for is. No again to the fork in the chain blah blah. You are trying to insert a POV in the lead in a manner that is not supported by the article nor the preponderance of the sources. I have already quoted the RFC that went over this in the past, here it is again Talk:Bitcoin_Cash/Archive_6#RfC:_Shall_Bitcoin_Cash_be_characterized_as_a_software_fork_of_bitcoin_in_the_first_sentence_of_the_lead_section?. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 00:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

If you read what I write above, you'll see clearly that I state "a fork occurred...resulting in Bitcoin Cash's creation." -- your argument above is that Bitcoin Cash is not a fork but then quote the RFC that says it was a fork.... can you please clarify?

I'm simply trying to have a discussion but you often appear to either ignore or make some narrative claim -- rather than trying to engage in or encourage productive dialogue. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The consensus is to use the word fork, not to modify it by using piped in text in your first proposal. It is also not to use piped in text to call a blockchain a chain of blocks that did xyz. The RFC stated that bitcoin cash is a fork of bitcoin, it is certainly not a continuation of bitcoin blocks or some other similar nonsense. The bitcoin cash PR position is that it is the true bitcoin and it continues where bitcoin left off when the fork occurred. This WP:FRINGE theory is not supported on this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The revised lead proposal uses the word fork.

You are extrapolating some claim that was never made. Where does the revised lead state anything of the sort?

A blockchain is quite literally a chain of blocks... Blockchain ILoveFinance (talk) 23:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesnt "share a chain of blocks." This appears to be a promotional, is untrue, and apparently lacks RS. None of this nuance is due in the lead, assuming it is even true (doesnt sounds true to me, it seems the part of the blocks that were copied ended in 2017 and we are now 7+ years later, a very very long time in the blockchain world). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

A blockchain is figuratively a chain of blocks. There is no physical chain, and no physical blocks. Both in the wider world and on Wikipedia specifically, cryptocurrency already suffers from a severe jargon problem.

Regarding the revised suggestion: neither "notably" nor "often considered" are improvements, per MOS:NOTABLY and MOS:WEASEL. "Solutions" is biz-speak per WP:SOLUTIONS, and "scaling solutions" is vague and more confusing than helpful. It's unlikely that this level of detail belongs in the very first paragraph, but if it does, there would have to be a better way of explaining it. Grayfell (talk) 03:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue "literally." Words have multiple definitions. I have a programming background -- chains are a real term, and are similar to linked lists and otherwise, and are how I would consider it a literal chain, just like I would consider a linked list a list created by literally linked items.

Fair enough on "notably."

As for "often considered," what would be acceptable? Just saying it is "considered" wouldn't be clear as not everyone refers to Bitcoin Cash that way, but many do. Not sure what the right way to incorporate that thought would be, unless you would argue that it should just be "considered an altcoin"?

I'll think of a new revision and propose. ILoveFinance (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

References