Talk:Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS

Requested move 9 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved per discussion below.(page mover nac) The editor whose username is Z0 10:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

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Black Flags: The Rise of ISIS → Black Flags – Per WP:SUBTITLE and WP:SMALLDETAILS (note that no other subject of a similarly titled article using an uppercase F is able to be pluralized). 142.160.89.97 (talk) 00:49, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Hhkohh (talk) 00:59, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Seems a common name Hhkohh (talk) 00:59, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Hhkohh: How do you reconcile your position with our book-specific guideline, WP:SUBTITLE, which states:

Usually, a Wikipedia article on a book (or other medium, such as a movie, TV special or video game) does not include its subtitle in the Wikipedia page name, per WP:CONCISE. The only exception to that is short article titles, for disambiguation purposes.

142.160.89.97 (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The proposed title seems a bit too ambiguous given the amount of things called Black Flag or Black Flags. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 01:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Hhkohh and Sakura Cartelet: How do you reconcile that position with WP:SMALLDETAILS which states:

When [hatnotes, etc.] are in place, small details are usually sufficient to distinguish topics, e.g. MAVEN vs. Maven; Airplane vs. Airplane!; Sea-Monkeys vs. SeaMonkey; The Wörld Is Yours vs. other topics listed at The World Is Yours.

And that doesn't answer the question: how do you reconcile your previous argument (concerning common names) with WP:SUBTITLE? (And I should note that not moving an article because the existing title is merely a common name isn't a position supported by any of our guidelines.) — 142.160.89.97 01:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC) — continues after insertion below

Now that I looked at it further, this might be a plausible term since when I looked under Black Flag on google it gave a bunch of unrelated results. However Black Flags turned up more results for this book. That's of course not conclusive though as mentioned here. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 02:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Sakura Cartelet: (Sorry, I hadn't seen this comment when I made my below comment.) Did your searches take into account capitalization, in line with WP:SMALLDETAILS? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 02:59, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Google search isn't case sensitive meaning that Black Flags and black flags both give the same results unlike Wikipedia. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 04:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Lastly, why is Hhkohh signing comments using the name Sakura Cartelet? Is this an undisclosed sockpuppet? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 01:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

No. Hhkohh just copied what I originally posted here. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 02:24, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

@Sakura Cartelet: Ahh, I see. I never would have interpreted that based on the indentation they used. Thank you for letting me know on my talk page.

And so how do you reconcile your position with WP:SMALLDETAILS? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 02:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:SUBTITLE is not a policy, just a guideline, see also WP:COMMONNAME and other related policy Hhkohh (talk) 09:48, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support I see no issue with the requested move, and it abides by the given guideline. -- Alex^TW 03:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support: See my reasoning above. Sakura Cartelet^Talk 04:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - this book is definitely not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Black Flag". I WP:IAR WP:SMALLDETAILS as that is, and always will be, a garbage guideline, as evidenced by the fact that Black Flag#Flags exists. --Gonnym (talk) 10:03, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

this book is definitely not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Black Flag". This would appear to be a straw man argument as literally no one has suggested otherwise.

I WP:IAR WP:SMALLDETAILS as that is, and always will be, a garbage guideline, as evidenced by the fact that Black Flag#Flags exists. Yeah, just because you don't like the central consensus doesn't mean we can disregard it. How can you reconcile that with WP:CONLEVEL? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 18:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Black Flags should stay a redirect to Black Flag, which has many more likely intended articles than one obscure book. SnowFire (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose cited guideline does not apply as disambiguation and long title are clearly beneficial to readers here, and in cases without (book) WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT works for short titles, but in this case per SnowFire. Like many too book articles massively obscure. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose This book is not the primary topic for black flag. The nom cites WP:DIFFCAPS but ignores the section that says "However, when renaming to a less ambiguous page name can be done without wandering from WP:CRITERIA, such renaming should be considered" - using the subtitle is a perfect form of natural disambiguation. AusLondonder (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too ambiguous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.