Talk:Black company (Japan)

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Requested move 13 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Black company (Japan). Per consensus, WP:UE. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 06:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Black company → Burakku kigyō – The 16th-century mercenary unit (Black Company) is the primary topic of the term black company. Moreover, in common English usage, the adjective black in this context usually means "relating or belonging to people with black or dark brown skin" (Cambridge Dictionary), so the literal translation of the word ("burakku kigyō" → "black company") doesn't really make sense due to the difference in nuance between the words black (in English) and burakku (in wasei-eigo). Many sources [1][2][3][4][5] agree that the literal translation of the word "burakku kigyō" to "black company" is misleading for this exact reason. The literal translation may be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it should not take precedence over the actual transliteration of the Japanese word in the article title (similar to how Haken (employment), Kaizen, Keiretsu, Shōtengai, and many other articles on Japanese business terms are titled). First Comet (talk) 16:34, 13 October 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I simply don't see why a move is necessary. We do tend to literally translate foreign idioms here. 04:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:447:C883:5430:3973:FD2D:47E8:3548 (talk)

A literal translation is fine if the translated words accurately reflect the nuances of a foreign idiom, but in this case the wasei-eigo term burakku does not necessarily correspond to black, as the sources I have provided indicate. In fact, the sources actively discourage the literal translation of burakku kigyō to black company. First Comet (talk) 04:49, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. However. Moreover, in common English usage, the adjective black in this context usually means "relating or belonging to people with black or dark brown skin... No it doesn't. Black market, black economy, etc. I would also support Black company (Japan), as the mercenary company is indeed primary. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support some move; this is clearly not the primary topic. Per WP:UE, I might prefer either Burakku company (if that is accurate) or Black company (Japan). (Or, possibly, deletion -- this is just a dictionary definition and a few random news articles with attestations.) Walt Yoder (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
  • I have informed Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan of this discussion in hopes of getting more input on the translations. Walt Yoder (talk) 20:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose the new nominated name per point 2 of the general guidelines under MOS:JPCOM, in which it states transliterations from katakana should use the English spelling. Here that would be "black", not "Burakku". Additionally, the term "black company" is well-attested in English-language media about Japan [6][7][8][9], and as such I do not support a move away from this term. On the other hand, I am convinced that this is not the primary topic for "black company" and would Support a move to Black company (Japan) _dk (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose to any variants with "Burakku", which is literally just the syllabication in katakana of the English word "black" as noted. It's not a Japanese word. We're not moving maid cafe to meido kafe. Neutral on an alternate move to Black company (Japan), which might resolve any complaints about the topic being "surprising". SnowFire (talk) 22:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

  I must reiterate that the word burakku in this usage is not simply the katakana syllabification of the English word black. Rather, burakku kigyō is a wasei-eigo term that has a slightly different connotation from black in common English usage. For example, [10] states: As Onabe points out, the Japanese word burakku and the English word black are completely different words, and burakku kigyō is a complete wasei-eigo term that was coined relatively recently, referring to a 2019 Asahi Shimbun article [11] on the term. First Comet (talk) 05:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Wasei eigo is still eigo and should be treated as eigo, in English. You refer to the preamble of a research paper that seeks to find out whether the term "black company" is problematic (why would it be problematic if burraku isn't black?) and concludes that there is no consensus within the academic community. The article rightly points out "black company" a new term based on the negative nuances of the color "black" (cf. the example terms Necrothesp listed above), and did not undergo the more recent racially-based reflection as it had in the West. It says the term "burakku company" in Japan does not have the same history as the word "black" in the West, but it doesn't say burakku is not black. Wikipedia would have a hard time convincing readers that black is not black, and WP:COMMON still takes precedence. _dk (talk) 06:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I simply don't understand your argument. Wasei-eigo are not English words, and they are usually written in romaji (see, for example, tarento vs. Japanese talent). First Comet (talk) 09:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

There is good reason why we have that article under Television personalities in Japan and not tarento. You don't have to understand my argument in whole but you have to get acquainted with WP:COMMONNAME. _dk (talk) 09:51, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I have already provided five of the numerous sources that explain why the literal translation of burakku kigyō as black company is inaccurate here. I think this is sufficient to show that the current title fails WP:COMMONNAME, in particular: Editors should also consider all five of the criteria for article titles outlined above. Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.

I must also point out that the article you mentioned (Television personalities in Japan) uses a descriptive title, not an incorrectly anglicized title like Talent (Japan), which is completely arbitrary and not based on anything. Also, that article discusses the subject of the term tarento (Japanese TV personalities), not the term itself, so you can't make a direct comparison between the two (so of course I wouldn't suggest that Mass media in Japan be renamed to Masukomi, and my judgment in this hypothetical case is perfectly consistent with the judgment I've made in this proposal). First Comet (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Underbar dk: Any response? You don't have to agree with my conclusion, but you do have to get the facts right. First Comet (talk) 17:26, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Please respect my right to disengage. But since you asked for a response, the article on black companies should cover the topic of unethical business practices in Japan and not the term itself, so I don't see why it can't be a direct comparison. What you consider as the reason that trumps WP:COMMON and MOS:JA is only based on one source that you provided, which, as I have pointed above, does not support what you say it does. _dk (talk) 22:31, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

@Underbar dk: That is a complete mischaracterization of the evidence I presented:

• The source [12] I cited in my response to your earlier comments did indeed support my conclusion that the literal translation of burakku kigyō as black company is inaccurate, which I demonstrated by quoting the specific sentence from the source (As Onabe points out, the Japanese word burakku and the English word black are completely different words, and burakku kigyō is a complete wasei-eigo term that was coined relatively recently). To say that the source mentioned other things is not to say that my quotation here is in any way false or misleading.
• Moreover, I actually presented four other sources that directly support my conclusion in my nomination comment, to which you responded only by claiming (without presenting competing WP:RS) that the conclusion was false. For example, The Japan Times in its article "Misleading wasei-eigo" [13] recommends the translation of burakku kigyō as exploitative company, explicitly uses burakku kigyo in its example sentence, and goes on to explain why the literal translation of burakku kigyō as black company is problematic: In any case, burakku kigyō should not be translated literally, as black is often perceived as black(ish).
• You also never addressed my point that WP:COMMONNAME [14] explicitly requires that accurate names for the article subject (as determined by reliable sources) be preferred over alternative names, even if those names are used more frequently in reliable sources.

You can't make a bunch of demonstrably false claims, or dodge well-reasoned objections, and say it's your right to disengage. Also, I don't see why the article on black companies should cover the topic of unethical business practices in Japan and not the term itself when we already have an article on the Japanese work environment. There is a significant overlap in scope between the two, so it clearly doesn't make sense to have separate articles if we're not going to cover the term primarily here. First Comet (talk) 05:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I gave RSes in my first Oppose comment in this topic. Yes, it is a wasei-eigo which is still based on the English word "black" and to say otherwise is a mischaracterization of the source, and I will not be swayed from this position. It is Wikipedia policy that I am allowed to WP:DISENGAGE so I will not respond any further since you clearly are more invested in the the article's name than I am. I will ask again that you respect my decision and Wikipedia policy. Have a good day. _dk (talk) 06:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Underbar dk: To say that burakku is derived from the English word black is not the same as saying that burakku and black are equivalent words (just as tarento and talent are not the same words, and in most cases are explicitly distinguished). I see that you are also unwilling to address the four other sources I provided, nor the point I made about WP:COMMONNAME.

I also point out that the sources you provided are simply the instances of the literal translation black company. But that is not all that WP:COMMONNAME requires. The policy requires more than just counting usage, including considering the accuracy of names for article subjects (see WP:CRITERIA). So the kind of sources you need to provide here are much stronger, such as a dictionary definition that explicitly presents black company as a translation of the word burakku kigyō. For reference, I looked up "ブラック企業" [15] in the Eijiro Japanese–English Dictionary (generally considered authoritative), and black company was not among the five translations presented. Your sources also scare quote black company to avoid confusion, which actually reinforces my point that the literal translation is misleading.

We choose article titles based on what WP:RS says about the topic, not on our personal opinion or experience. It is not my fault if your preconceptions do not match reality, or if other editors prove them wrong. First Comet (talk) 08:37, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me. My concern is with adherence to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:Use English, which your Japanese source does not address. It says burakku kigyō is a wasei-eigo, which I agree with, but that has no bearing on how we ought to name the article on English Wikipedia especially when our policies require us to use English whenever possible. I imagine we will not see eye-to-eye on how we name articles for wasei-eigo subjects, which is why I would rather disengage. I also do not agree that we should have an article that primarily covers the term and not unethical Japanese business practices, since, firstly Wikipedia is not a dictionary - such an article would be more suitable on Wiktionary than here; and secondly, black practices ought not to be given WP:UNDUE weight on the Japanese work environment article. _dk (talk) 08:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

No, my sources all support the view that burakku kigyō should not be translated as black company because of the difference in nuance between black and burakku, a claim I further substantiated in my earlier comment by showing that a widely used Japanese–English dictionary also excludes it from suggested translations for the term. You have also consistently failed to address my point that WP:COMMONNAME requires that accurate names for the article subject (as determined by WP:RS) be used for article titles, which I have repeated four times so far with no response. WP:EN also requires that the version of the name of the subject that is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources be used for article titles, which I don't think is the case with respect to black company for the reasons I mentioned earlier. First Comet (talk) 17:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support alternate move to "Black company (Japan)", for reasons listed by everybody else above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 21:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support alternate move to "Black company (term)" (as in other terms), as this seems to be a case of MOS:WAW. fgnievinski (talk) 20:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

  A translation for a foreign term that many dictionaries [16][17] deliberately omit from the definition for good reason fails WP:CRITERIA. First Comet (talk) 00:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2024

Suggestion: Include Anycolor Inc as an "alleged" example of a black company

Reasons: Since there has at least one sources from a major media channel, which is Hindustan, that allege that Selen Tatsuki had been working a black company(Anycolor). And since Wikipedia has been known to take less reputable sources, I think that this is sufficed to include Anycolor as an "alleged" example of a black company.

CuongNguyen02 (talk) 10:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• CuongNguyen02: Per the template, you need to include specific language in your request—that is, what is the exact text you want added to the article? (Other note: the article contained this source for the same proposition, but in relation to a different incident.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 16:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2024 (2)

Add nijisanji (or at least nijisanji en and id) to the examples/references section as they are a good example of a black company 114.122.111.195 (talk) 18:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – robertsky (talk) 13:44, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Here's an actual lawyer discussing their contracts, which are mostly illegal under US law due to what they say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJUy4pfwXLU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8ERaDE8VU 75.80.49.225 (talk) 08:44, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Youtube videos and other user-generated content are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia. Jamedeus (talk) 18:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

They are reputable if they are an analysis of a legal document done by an ACTUAL lawyer and uploaded by said ACTUAL lawyer. 75.80.49.225 (talk) 00:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Gathering reliable sources for Nijisanji

Hey folks, I know there's a lot of energy around this topic right now, but there are rules about what kind of information gets into Wikipedia articles and what kind of sources can be used to support that information. Please check WP:Reliable sources for a basic primer and you can post here with any sources you think qualify. Here's some that I found to get you started, though I don't know if they're all reliable because I'm not familiar with JP sources (I found these on Google News which has some standards but isn't guaranteed). I couldn't find any English language sources (yet) but I imagine investigations will start happening from more reputable outlets soon. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:55, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Dokibird is more or less known as the former talent Selen's alt.

She was hospitalized due to her treatment - and personally mentioned losing 15,000 USD due to the company taking down a video, which she was forced to get permission from the song owner / writer to cover, which they took down after it was published.

She has cited bullying internally and some claims say that she has requested her money back, because they OKed the song at first.

They also seem to have targeted her with catch-all rules, which usually arent applied to anyone.

These are likely meant to allow people to terminate whoever they want.

@Weeniedesu on Twitter, claims that the company didnt pay her for months - the mentioned Talent, Selen had to do so.

The user also claims that the company sent her the wrong NDA three times, it had someone elses name on it.

@Melonminty_ on Twitter, worked with Selen, Anycolor attempted to send her NDAs - they sent incorrect NDAs, multiple times and sent the improper copy again, after she mentioned it in public. She was paid.

Zaion and Pomu, have both voiced complaints and possible internal bullying.

Selen seems to indicate that the company itself is toxic.

Selen's termination notice which the company put out, seems to note that she was bullied by other talents, rather than management.

This would cause fans to direct hate to the other talents rather than the company. This has already started to happen.

The talents also hardly make any large cuts or even small cuts from their merchandise.

The company released merch featuring Selen, after her termination.

Twitter posts, or other sources can likely be used here.

Nijisanji forces its members to sign NDAs, so former members cannot speak out. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 20:40, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Twitter posts are generally not considered reliable secondary sources. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Twitter posts made by Artists would be reliable.

If Mark Cuban went on the news and sais something, that would be citeable.

These accounts are ones which have worked with the company, and are known artists.

They arent random claims or unrelated profiles, thus usable.

These are akin to Facebook profiles and the like. Having the posts on an archive, in case of future changes or handle changes would be ideal in this case. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 12:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

These artists were involved with the company and technically hired out by them.

This makes them primary sources for this information. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 12:38, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Primary sources are potentially usable for biographical claims about the artists themselves (but not about each other; that's hearsay). Analysis of a company would need secondary coverage published in a reliable outside source. Axem Titanium (talk) 14:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The artists were to be paid by the company who the talents worked with.

Therefore, Nijisanji.

This doesnt fit the claim of hearsay, they likely have the NDAs to back them up. There also seems to be two people who are verfied as having worked with the company, having this same claim.

Their posts would likely be removed for slander, by the billion dollar corporation if it were false.

Thankfully, whats mentioned here isnt typically viewed as hearsay. The NDAs were literally improper, and the talent had to pay at least one person out of their own pocket.

The company has not countered these claims. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 20:11, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

She was hospitalized due to an attempt on taking her life due to harassment by staff. 46.123.252.157 (talk) 22:36, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Nijisanji contract leaked and is highly illegal under US law, and likely under japanese law as well.

• https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/748184311d0e6dd508086a5d9c5fe8567ed81f2b
• https://realsound.jp/tech/2022/09/post-1125285.html
• https://p2y.jp/anycolor-terminates-nijisanji-en-new-vtuber-selen-tatsuki-due-to-repeated-contract-violations-and-misrepresentations-on-sns/
• https://p2y.jp/some-foreign-vtuber-listeners-and-fans-are-increasingly-critical-of-nijisanji-and-anycolor-in-response-to-the-contents-of-zaion-lanza-document/
• https://www.polygon.com/24065311/vtuber-selen-tatsuki-nijisanji-termination-dokibird
• https://p2y.jp/anycolor-nijisanji-en-new-talent-contract-suspected-leak/

Axem Titanium (talk) 19:55, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2024

Please revert back to the previous revision that includes Nijisanji, as the article does not state anywhere that this term is only applicable to salaryman work. Wikipedia Indonesia has also directly referred to Nijisanji as a Black Company themselves on Twitter/X, which can be found here and here. AH MattBOY (talk) 22:42, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

• AH MattBOY: The inclusion of the company in the "See also" list was inappropriate, as "Nijisanji" (a company) is not conceptually similar to "Black company (Japan)" (a phenomenon). However, prose regarding the company could certainly be added under an "Examples" heading. If you have further sources referring to Nijisanji as a black company, (either in this or in other contexts,) feel free to add them to the above discussion; however, posts from parody accounts are not reliable sources. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 05:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  The posts I have linked to are not from a parody account, @idwiki is Wikipedia Indonesia's official Twitter/X account and can be found on the top banner of Wikipedia Indonesia's homepage. AH MattBOY (talk) 03:00, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Wikipedia is not a reliable source, this includeds non english wikipedias. Once you have a reliable source to back up your claim, you may make that edit yourself, as this page's protection has expired. GrayStorm^{(Talk|Contributions)} 19:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)