Talk:Black metal

Raw black metal

I noticed when I tried to improve this sections examples by swapping out Bathory (out of all the bad examples listed there they are undeniably the stupidest) with a band that is undeniably raw like Mütiilation it kind of provoked a a brief edit war between two other editors, mostly because one of them insisted I had a point. Ultimately Mütiilation was removed due to the source not being reliable, but here's the thing; I think all "examples" are just better off kept off not only in accordance with how the source used seems to fail WP:EXPLICITGENRE but also I think anyone who even knows that listing five of the most entry level black metal bands ("Gorgoroth, Bathory, Darkthrone, Satyricon, Bathory and Burzum) and calling them "raw" is absolutely ridiculous. It does nothing to illustrate this section. Simply put: those bands are not raw black metal. Second Skin (talk) 23:11, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, the statement that they aren't part of this subgenre and that their incluison is "stupid" are your own WP:POV and have no basis in third-party sources. Also, you removed more sources than the contentious one, and even the contentious one use direct language, it's just that the term "raw" seems to be ambiguous itself, that's why I think that the tagging should be enough, no removal needed.

Also, you don't need to create another discussion on the matter when there's already one open. ABC paulista (talk) 23:53, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

"During the 1980s, several thrash metal and death metal bands formed a prototype for black metal."

Black metal as a term and arguably as a cohesive style predates thrash and death metal. This quote feels innacurate. 45.50.22.129 (talk) 18:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, the great majority of the sources state that Black metal originated as a style from Thrash metal, emerging alongside Death metal. And as a term, most agree that it's mostly associated with Venom's album with the same name, which was a Thrash metal one. ABC paulista (talk) 20:23, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Ideologies presented as genres, and repetition

Back in February 2021, ABC paulista changed the long-standing layout of the article, moving "National Socialist black metal", "Red-Anarchist black metal", and "Christian black metal" from the Ideology section into the Stylistic divisions section. The content was split, so now these movements are discussed twice, under both Stylistic divisions and Ideology. The change was not discussed, and I see two big problems with it.

First, it over-highlights these tiny groups of Nazi or Anarchist or Christian bands. Why should these minority movements have two sections each? Surely it makes more sense to deal with these groups in the one place, instead of having the content broken up and 'scattered' over the article?

Second, having these movements under Stylistic divisions wrongly implies that they're distinct musical styles. Most sources don't treat them as such, and even the sources that call them "subgenres" (a vague term) don't say that they're musically distinct. In a related discussion on another talkpage, ABC Paulista agreed with me on this point: "the majority of the sources in their respective articles treat them as mere ideological movements that can span multiple Black metal subgenres, and not as a subgenre themselves" ... "the majority of sources cite them as ideologies rather than subgenres". So why make this change and later revert my undoing of it?

I was the one who added a lot of the sources for these parts of the article, but as I haven't paid enough attention to the article for a couple of years, this change flew under my radar. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 18:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence in the sources that this ideologically heterodox strain of Black Metal (edit: referring to RABM) is stylistically different, so presenting the content about this subtopic as a stylistically diverging subgenre appears to be original research. Despite RABM being called a "genre" or a "subgenre" in some but not all sources--and from what I can tell, not the majority of sources that mention this term--according to the present organization of the article, whereby stylistically, musically, different strains of black metal are listed as subgenres, RABM should not be listed as a subgenre, because doing so necessarily implies a stylistic difference, and there is no meaningful discussion of this stylistic difference in the sources.—Alalch E. 18:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Some of the sources do claim that RABM bands draw inspirations from Crust Punk and Anarcho-Punk, thus differing from other subgenres that have no such influences. ABC paulista (talk) 22:01, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

While I still agree with you that these should be considered ideologies rather than a subgenre, both 3family6 and Walter Görlitz did partially convince me there that there's enough recognition of these as subgenres that should be accepted here (and I think that, as the biggest advocates of such view, they should partake in this discussion as well). And if they are treated as subgenres rather than mere ideological movements, that they shoud be cited on the subgenre section, and more effort should be put on distinguishing them from the broader ideological scope. ABC paulista (talk) 21:50, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I honestly don't remember that discussion, they can go under ideologies. Some genres are lyrically rather than musically distinct. Of those three, the only one that could be seen as musically distinct would be RABM, but even that is just typical, not always. if there's going to be an ideology section, it makes sense for those three styles to go there.-3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems most of us agree that these should be considered ideological groupings rather than musical subgenres. It's been suggested that RABM might be different because it tends to include crust punk elements or overlap with the crust scene. But as 3family6 points out, not all RABM bands have crust influences, and it isn't what defines "RABM". So I think the best thing is to go back to this layout, but keep one line about RABM in the Blackened crust section. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 10:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm okay with any resolution, as long as we mantain WP:COHERENCE for this matter throughout Wikipedia. We can't have articles like this one stating that they aren't a subgenre, while their own ones, like Unblack metal and National Socialist black metal, and others like Extreme metal claiming that they actually are. All of them have to agree on the matter, either being or not being subgenres, otherwise it would be confusing for the reader. ABC paulista (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I think "subgenre" is a vague term. Usually it means a distinct musical style, but sometimes it's used for groups of bands who're only distinguished by their lyrics or imagery (such as 'Christian metal' or 'Viking metal'). In this article, we list the subgenres under Stylistic divisions. That avoids any confusion and makes it clear we're talking about musical styles. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 13:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)