Talk:Blackfriars, Oxford

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Blackfriars, Oxford/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

A couple of pics would be a nice addition, and the article needs references! Casper Gutman 23:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 23:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141007063959/http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2009/091116.html to http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2009/091116.html
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Move from Blackfriars, Oxford to Blackfriars Hall, Oxford

Ravenpuff, I saw you moved the article on 20 March, based on the official name according to Statute V and the University Calendar. Is Blackfriars Hall the WP:COMMONNAME and has it changed? The list of colleges for Graduates on the university website has Blackfriars, but the Blackfriars website has recently been split into a hall site and a priory site, so the common name may have changed. The article for Greyfriars, a former PPH, is at Greyfriars, Oxford. TSventon (talk) 20:48, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

@TSventon: I suppose it depends what you consider the "common name" to be. Many of the Oxford (and Cambridge) college articles aren't at their strict COMMONNAME titles – the "disambiguators" aren't always needed, e.g. Wadham College or Hughes Hall – but we include them anyway for the sake of consistency and marking them as constituent entities of a collegiate university. "Blackfriars" was the only odd one out of the Oxford ones to have its article title differ from the name officially used by the central university, and I regarded this as a sufficiently straightforward reason to move the page, corroborated by the website, etc.

Regardless of the title, this doesn't preclude us from referring to the hall simply as "Blackfriars", just as Brasenose College can be subsequently referred to as "Brasenose" after first mention. Regarding Greyfriars: I'm interested in seeing what the university's "official" name for the hall was, but in any case the situation is not completely analogous in that Greyfriars is no longer a hall and the article title might just reflect its current state as a friary.

Further, as you mentioned, the Blackfriars websites have now been split – in light of this "Blackfriars Hall" would be a good natural disambiguator to distinguish it from the priory, especially if we were to spin it off into its own article. If this article were to be about both hall and priory (on a roughly equal footing), I suppose "Blackfriars" alone would be the better title to use, although I note that the current opening sentence has it as "a permanent private hall of the University of Oxford", thus perhaps making "Blackfriars Hall" a more justifiable choice here. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 00:55, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ravenpuff:, I think it would have been better to start a requested move discussion as the article had been at Blackfriars, Oxford since 2002. You could then have explained why the common name is Blackfriars Hall rather than Blackfriars and other editors could have agreed or disagreed. As you say, the Oxford college articles all include ", Oxford", but that does not mean that COMMONNAME does not apply to the rest of the name. The history of the Greyfriars article shows the article was at Greyfriars, Oxford while it was a PPH, but that was some years ago. I don't think WP:NATURALDIS is needed as we don't have a separate article for the other activities at Blackfriars.

As there are arguments for both names as COMMONNAME, I don't think the move needs to be reversed. The list of colleges for Graduates on the university website suggests Blackfriars is the common name, while the hall website suggests Blackfriars Hall. I think Statute V and the University Calendar are evidence for the official name rather than the common name. I couldn't find much external coverage online. TSventon (talk) 08:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

PS, a 2006 archive of the list of colleges on the university website shows Blackfriars and Greyfriars. As friaries, they were the only institutions on the list whose names did not end with College, Hall, Church or House. TSventon (talk) 14:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Christ Church does not have College, Hall or House. It would have been wiser to leave Blackfriars with the name it has had in Oxford since 1221. It is its official University name. Adding Hall is no improvement 2001:BB6:5093:E58:F841:37DA:E668:70DC (talk) 10:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The common name is still Blackfriars, but that is the name for the institution as a whole rather than for the Hall itself, which currently has no common name. I see that Blackfriars is now trying to distinguish carefully between the different parts of itself, and we should follow that within the article. What we should call the article depends not only on COMMONNAME questions but also on whether the article is about the Hall or the whole of Blackfriars, which is currently not entirely clear to me. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 17:14, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jonathan A Jones:, I agree the article is confused. I think it should be moved back to Blackfriars, Oxford and rearranged to cover the priory as a whole, including the private hall and studium. The hall has only existed since 1994 and it would be difficult to write an adequate article about it based on independent sources. The article currently has one independent reference about the medieval priory and none about the modern one. The Encyclopaedia of Oxford and Dominican Gallery (Aidan Nichols, 1997) look like possible sources. TSventon (talk) 11:11, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ravenpuff:, thank you for drawing attention to the article, what do you think? TSventon (talk) 11:39, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jonathan A Jones:, @Ravenpuff:, I have rearranged the article with the friary as subject at User:TSventon/sandbox/Blackfriars, Oxford. Is this an improvement? It still lacks independent references, but there will be more for the friary, including the studium and PPH, than for the PPH alone. TSventon (talk) 20:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

It is an improvement, though you will have to think about the infobox. I checked in The Encyclopedia of Oxford which dates from 1988, before the PPH was established, and there the article is "Blackfriars, the Priory of the Holy Spirit". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:04, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

@Jonathan A Jones:, I have added a monastery infobox and removed duplicate information from the hall infobox in my draft. TSventon (talk) 11:41, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks: I would favour moving your sandbox version to mainspace as "Blackfriars, Oxford", replacing "Blackfriars Hall, Oxford" by a redirect, and creating a redirect from "Blacfriars Priory, Oxford". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

All done as suggested. TSventon (talk) 18:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@TSventon: Sorry, I was rather busy and consequently unable to return to this discussion. I'm happy with the outcome, and I agree that we ought to focus the article on both the studium and the hall (with the priory overarching). I've taken the liberty to copyedit the lead slightly for clarity and factual precision – there's also scope to add an additional paragraph outlining the history of Blackfriars, I think. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)