Talk:Blind man's buff

Country of origin

What country is it from

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.228.128 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 21 January 2009

Bluff or buff?

I don't see any discussion for the recent move. My understanding has always been that the game is correctly called "buff", and "bluff" is a common error. So why was this moved without discussion? -Phoenixrod (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you’ll find the answer at WP:COMMONNAME. But, you can always make an argument to have it changed back. — SpikeToronto 06:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite familiar with that policy. But it starts off by saying "Articles are normally titled using the name which is most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article." My point is that I don't see the reliable sources saying "bluff" more often. In fact, the cited sources make no apparent point either way.

Let's look at Wiktionary: "buff" is more common in the UK and "bluff" in the US, but the detailed definition is at the buff spelling.

I know that a Google search isn't reliable, but it can be illustrative: "blind man's buff" yields 106,000 results, but "blind man's bluff" only 78,500.

I'd have to look for RS that talk about the issue, but COMMONNAME doesn't offer a clear rationale for the move. -Phoenixrod (talk) 19:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I know this will count against me, but I wouldn’t trust Wiktionary. However, if this helps at all, the entry at “blindman’s buff,” Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. (23 Nov. 2010) reads as follows:

Main Entry: blind·man’s buff

Function: noun

Etymology: blind man + buff (buffet)

1 : a group game in which a blindfolded player tries to catch and identify any other member of the group

2 : something concerted with trickery and bedazzlement or carried out without awareness of the facts and issues involved

What’s interesting about the unabridged Webster’s is that it does not even have an entry involving bluff. I find this odd since (a) it is an American dictionary, and (b) I had never even heard buff until this wikiarticle. In contrast to the unabridged dictionary, Merriam-Webster’s Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary has the following entry:

Main Entry: blind·man’s buff

Function: noun

Date: 1599

: a group game in which a blindfolded player tries to catch and identify another player — called also blindman’s bluff. [See also here.]

The important thing is that, even though we know that bluff is more common in North America, the (essentially) official dictionary of AmE — Merriam-Webster’s — uses buff as the main entry.

What do you think of the fact that Webster’s has blind man as one word: blindman?

By the way, the history behind this move has very little to do with which name is more correct. It was because of some good faith work done by another editor that messed up the article history, among other things. You can read the background here.

Finally, would you like me to have a look at Encyclopædia Britannica and see what it has on the topic? I have the latest edition. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 00:22, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

FOLLOW-UP. When I search Google for bluff, I get 592,000 hits. (See here.) When I search Google for buff, I get 413,000 hits. (See here.) Thanks! — SpikeToronto 01:56, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure where all that leaves us! Thanks for the link to User:Materialscientist's talk; I had expected to find something like that on this talk page. Your inclusion of "blind man" as one or two words was a good idea in a Google search; I had searched only for "blind man's bluff" (106,000 hits) and "blind man's bluff" (78,600 hits).

I have to say that I've never seen "blindman" as one word for this phrase. Do any reliable sources other than Webster's use that spelling? If you have time to check Britannica, I'd certainly like to know what it has to say. -Phoenixrod (talk) 03:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I’ll pull Britannica off the shelf tomorrow and have a look. If I seem to have forgotten, give me a prod. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 05:07, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Britannica files the entry under blindman’s buff. Buff instead of bluff has a certain logic to it since Webster’s tells us (see above) that the etymology of the “buff” part of the name is from the verb, buffet. Note also that they make blind man into one word, blindman.

Further from Britannica are the following:

• Game dates back at least 2,000 years to Ancient Greece
• It has various names throughout Europe:
  • mosca cieca (blind fly) in Italy
  • blindbock (blind buck) in Sweden
  • gallina ciepa (blind hen) in Spain
  • colin-maillard (“named for a medieval French lord who kept laying about him with his sword after he had been blinded in battle”)
• entry discusses the method of play, but mentions that “in the Middle Ages it was an adult game, and the blindfolded player was usually struck and buffeted as well, hence ‘buff.’”
• some variations require the blind man to ascertain the identity of the hoped-to-be next blind man if the current blind man is to be able to pass on the blindfold; otherwise, the blind man continues as if he had never caught one of the other players.
• popularity among adults had not been limited to just the Middle Ages.
  • “the English diarist Samuel Pepys reported a game played by his wife and some friends in 1664.”
  • “the English poet laureate Alfred, Lord Tennyson, is said to have played it in 1855.”

Since this is a Micropædia entry, it is rather brief with no author attributed. If you use any of this, I would cite it as follows:

<ref name=britannica>“blindman’s buff,” ''[[Encyclopædia Britannica]]''. [[History_of_the_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica#Second_version_.281985.E2.80.93present.29|15th edition]]. '''2'''. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. 2010. p. 283.</ref>

This would generate the following in a footnote:

“blindman’s buff,” Encyclopædia Britannica. 15th edition. 2. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. 2010. p. 283.

Although, based on your experience, you probably know all of this footnoting stuff already! Nonetheless, I hope this information is helpful to you. — SpikeToronto 20:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

P.S. While blindman’s buff would appear to be the correct name, blindman’s bluff would appear to be the common name (see Google search results above). So, what is our guidance here? What do WP:COMMONNAME (specifically) and Wikipedia:Article titles (generally) tell us we should do in such an instance? Let’s study the policy in detail in see what interpretation we come up with and discuss it here. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 20:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The article was originally at "blind man's buff". After a complex chain of moves (involving cut-and-paste moves and administrator attempts to fix them), the article ended up at "blind man's bluff" around November 13, 2010. I agree with User:Phoenixrod that the article name should be "buff" and am moving it back. "Bluff" is a linguistic corruption of the original name of the game. —Lowellian (reply) 20:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Origin of name "blind man's bluff"

The article said "The game later also became known as "blind man's bluff"; it is possible that this name is a linguistic corruption, or it may originate from an older sense of bluff meaning to blindfold." I find the latter speculation highly unlikely for two reasons. 1) It's unlikely that a later name originates from an older sense of the word, which was probably already obsolete. 2) "Blind man's blindfold" makes no sense.

Since this speculation was not sourced (the reference given was for the older meaning of 'bluff', not for its relevance to the name "blind man's bluff"), I removed it. JudahH (talk) 05:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

中華初第等小學國文教科書

While the reference may be completely valid, it feels like at least a summary of what it refers to in English would help. Especially because Google Translate suggests it's simply a term for an abecedary. Maybe a native speaker can shed some light into that? Flameeyes (talk) 10:22, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Why is this a level 5 vital article

I've never heard of this in my life, there is no way this deserves level 5, level 5 is the most important, if blind man's buff was so important then why have I never heard of it before. NamelessLameless (talk) 23:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Seinfelded

Why is the word Seinfelded used in the article rather than blindfolded? 2600:1700:4300:4EB0:348F:BE66:7654:F4A4 (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Greek name?

Can the actual Greek word translated as "copper mosquito" be supplied here?Hieronymus Illinensis (talk) 05:27, 20 July 2023 (UTC)