Talk:Bloody Christmas (1945)
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Jingiby in topic 5,000 killed in several days, etc.
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editThe following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:08, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
Proposed changes to the article
editHello. I believe that this article has contained FALSE INFORMATION. I’m trying to add some facts, academic sources. And, it appears that on Wikipedia there is a censorship of the academicc facts. 77.28.47.16 (talk) 15:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Here are the facts I'm trying to add:
- The Bloody Christmas (Bulgarian: Кървава Коледа, Kărvava Koleda; Macedonian: Крвава Коледа, Krvava Koleda) or the Bloody Bozhik (Bulgarian: Кървав Божик, Kărvav Bozhik; Macedonian: Крвав Божиќ, Krvav Božiḱ) was a campaign in which at least 140 recorded Macedonian citizens were killed by the Yugoslav communist authorities in the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Events took place in January 7, 1945 and the next several months.[1] Thousands of others who retained their pro-Bulgarian sympathies and Macedonian national separatists were victims of repression, as a result.[2][3][4][5][6]
And, the third paragraph:
- On the other hand, according to the Macedonian historiography and some Bulgarian historians like Stefan Detchev, the Mutiny of the Skopje Fortress, and the Rebellion of Štip, in January 1945, was a deed of Macedonian nationalists. They were Macedonian national patriots, and soldiers who had previously fought against the German-Bulgarian Nazi occupiers, and who were later against the new Yugoslav politics towards Macedonia, as well. [7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.47.16 (talk) 10:36, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ Bechev, Dimitar (2009) Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia. Scarecrow Press. p.287. ISBN 0810855658
- ^ Poulton, Hugh (2000) Who Are the Macedonians?. C. Hurst & Co. p.118. ISBN 1850655340
- ^ „Настаните на Скопското Кале на 7 јануари 1945 година - Документи“, Институт за национална историја, Скопје, 1997 г.
- ^ „Настаните на 7 јануари 1945 во артилереските бригади во Скопје" - Зборник со материјали од научниот собир посветен на Главниот штаб на НОВ и ПОМ, 1941-1945, МАНУ, Скопје, 1997, стр. 113-123.
- ^ „Јануарскиот масакар и вистината за него", дел 1, „Македонско време", бр. 32 за 1997, стр. 35-39.; „Јануарскиот масакар и вистината за него", дел 2, „Македонско време", бр. 33, за 1997, стр. 30-35.
- ^ „Јануарските настани на Скопското кале - 1945", Зборник на документи, издание на Архивот на Македонија, Скопје, 1997, стр. 298.
- ^ Stefan Dechev: "The Macedonian Bloody Christmas - Truths, Half-truths and Lies” (Radio Free Europe in Bulggarian language)
- Your claims of censorship, and threats to go the press are not going to help you here. If the sources are reliable, and support your contentions, then the changes will be made, regardless of threats. The problem is that this is English Wikipedia, and you have provided non-English sources. While this is definitely allowed, it makes it extremely difficult to check your sources and their reliability. When the issues have a strong ethnic or nationalistic aspect to them, there's always the possibility that the sources provided are not neutral, but hew to an ethnic/nationalistic point of view. How can we determine what is going on under these circumstances?Are there no English-language sources you can provide? Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Neutral pointers to this discussion have been placed on the talk pages of the WikiProjects listed above, and on WP:AN. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:26, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I will be polite. And I'll try to provide English sources. But, you say: When the issues have a strong ethnic or nationalistic aspect to them, there's always the possibility that the sources provided are not neutral. Than, in the first sentence, should be noted that the victims were Macedonian citizens or people who lived in the People's Republic of Macedonia. I assure you, not all the victims are Bulgarian nationalists and Nazi collaborators. And, it will be quite neutral formulation... And, it is a good start. 77.28.47.16 (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- The IP is definitely trying to provoke the public after the creation of the article on the Law for the Protection of Macedonian National Honor, which irritated the North Macedonian editors, probably from the group called WIKIPEDIA WARRIORS: THE NEW FRONT LINES IN THE BATTLE FOR MACEDONIA. Their webinar against me is available here. In this case, an obvious attempt is made to mix 2 different events that occurred at approximately the same time. One is the confrontation between the Yugoslav communist authorities and the Bulgarians in then Yugoslav Macedonia which led to the creation of a special anti-Bulgarian court and law. The other is the crackdown on a military rebellion by Macedonian soldiers in Skopje who did not want to fight for the new Yugoslav authorities. More info on this event is available at the end of the article Gotse Delchev Brigade. The reason for these military revolts was that Serbs and Montenegrins were appointed as new commanders in these units. These Serbian and Montenegrin officers addressed them with the words: "Southern Serbs" or "damned Bulgarians". Otherwise, there are many sources for Bloody Christmas as an anti-Bulgarian event. For example: The most poignant example of Communist Party of Macedonia excess was Bloody Christmas: a series of pro-Bulgarian Macedonian purges that started in January 1945. For more see: James Horncastle, The Macedonian Slavs in the Greek Civil War, 1944–1949, Rowman & Littlefield, 2019, ISBN 1498585051, on p. 107, etc. Jingiby (talk) 18:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
5,000 killed in several days, etc.
editPlease, provide sources for these extraordinary claims. Jingiby (talk) 16:54, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- User:Kaiseredit, please, provide reliable sources about ethnic cleansing. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 17:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
The article it self says 4,700 so I rounded it up since we do not have exact numbers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaiseredit (talk • contribs) 17:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- Between 1945 and 1947. Jingiby (talk) 17:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)