Talk:Boron hydride clusters

untitled

Righty - a minor edit - have just changed deltahedral to polyhedral, which now corresponds with the relevent article. I believe the terms are synonymous

Stui 12:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Family or individual?

I'm sure borane is the name of a single chemical (BH₃), that then gives rise to a group of similarly constituated chemicals, the boranes. Just like phenol and the phenols.

Borane seems to accept a proton and two electrons to form the borohydride ion, which forms ionic bonds to create sodium borohydride Am I correct, or misled? - Jack (talk) 14:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, borane is BH₃, but also B(CH₃)₃ is a borane. So that part is correct.

Boranes have an empty p-orbital, which can accept any Lewis base (i.e., it can accept anything that has an electron pair .. and borane will accept that). Technically, BH₃ is not the compound, it exists as a dimer (B₂H₆), where each BH₃ moiety accepts electron density from a B-H σ-bond from the other unit. Similar, it will accept H- (i.e. a proton with two electrons .. it does not accept protons, well, it is reacting with it, not forming 'complexes'!), Similarly, CN^- can donate an electron-pair to it. This is the cyanoborohydride ion, [BH₃CN]^-. These things indeed form ionic salts e.g. NaBH₄ and NaBH₃CN. Etc. etc. So you are quite close to being right. Hope this clarified a bit. Do you feel this info is missing in the article? If so, I could have a look at it. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 14:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

So the chemical that should be borane is actually diborane? Damn, I was hoping for a system analogous of the alkanes... I was researching alternative biochemistrys, and came across boron as a charbon subsitute. Should this article be merged with organoborane? - Jack (talk) 15:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, for BH₃ .. would be a better name .. and no, no merge between borane and the organoborane .. two different subjects. One could opt for a move of this page to diborane, and making borane a redirect to that page. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

No, ignore my last message .. diborane already exists, is about B₂H₆. This is page is about 'boranes' .. though a bit misleading in intro, I think. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Tagged as confusing. Thankyou for your help :) - Jack (talk) 20:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Borane chemistry

Having just rewritten the Wades rule article I was surprised how sparse the coverage of boranes is. Thinking about it I agree with the above idea of this becoming a family page. There are too many boranes to warrant a compound article each, but there should be some coverage of them as a class with specific articles for the key compounds (which are there already). I would be happy to make a stab at enhancing it to become an over view of the main topics in borane chemistry including naming IUPAC, deltahedral structures, link to Wades rules, general chemistry, reactivity trends, isomerisation etc. Individual key compound articles could then have a 'see also' link back to it. Let me know! Axiosaurus 21:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

boranes want to know the structure of B3H8

boranes want to know the structure of B3H8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.252.229.51 (talk) 15:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure B₃H₈ exists as such. B₃H₇ certainly does, but adding another hydride you'd get an octahydrotriborate anion (which is a well-known species). Google for "B3H8" or "NaB3H8" (a simple salt of it) and you'll get lots of papers with various information and images of the structure. DMacks (talk) 15:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Zip Fuels

Borane zip fuels were abandoned by the Air Force not because of the ICBM-redundency issue, but because combustion of borane zip fuels caused corrosive boron deposits in the engine turbines and created a thick black smoke that drew attention to the presence of the aircraft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cransona (talk • contribs) 21:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Split proposal

We need (I propose) to split this thing into boron hydride clusters and boranes (RBH2, R2BH, R3B). --Smokefoot (talk) 03:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like a reasonable division of the topic. But this article already seems to be only about the boron-hydride clusters, whereas the separate organoboron chemistry is about boranes with one or more R-groups. DMacks (talk) 03:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, maybe we should just rename this article to boron hydride clusters. I might try that.

@Michael D. Turnbull: The aspect that prompted the split idea is that hydroboration has a nice section on boranes, which might seem out of place, except that they were mostly created for specialized hydroborations. We could equally well move that part to organoboron chemistry. This section includes some hydroboration reagents but mainly discusses fundamental organoboron chemistry. I will try to separate these sections.

Another issue: there is hydroboration per se, and then there are the reactions of the products of hydroboration (e.g. oxidation to alcohols is prominent). One could say that hydroboration article should focus on addition of B-H bonds to substrates, but that the reactions of the resulting boranes should be elsewhere, like organoboron chemistry. On the other hand, hydroboration per se is kinda pointless unless one does some reactions of the resulting boranes. In that case, the reactions of the resulting boranes is justified. And we might wrestle with overlapping content with organoboron chemistry --Smokefoot (talk) 19:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Smokefoot I think you probably meant to ping @DMacks. I've no great interest in boron chemistry and have never contributed here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

And now I'm late to the party, as usual. But I support Smokefoot's boranes→boron hydride clusters page-move. That's a WP:NATDAB for its topic, and also nicely allows changes such as [1] and [2] to identify individual examples as being part of this class. It also forces editors to avoid linking to boranes and expecting a different meaning than we had at that location. DMacks (talk) 21:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I have been working on this thing. Boron hydride clusters seems self-contained. Boranes overlaps with several articles but maybe that is just the way its gotta be until some more enlightened editor comes along. Possibly more work is needed on legacy links from borane that should go to the cluster article. --Smokefoot (talk) 03:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I can easily see several different but overlapping meanings of "boranes", covering seven total topics. So brief WP:SETINDEX or overview might work well. We have hydride-clusters as chemicals (inorganikers love these!), R-boranes with or without H (organikers make these, use them as nucleophile precursors, oxidize them to alkohols, and as Lewis acids), H-boranes with or without R (organikers use these as reducing agents), haloboranes (various uses). We have separate articles about at some of these specifically, and most of the others probably also covered at least somewhere as a start. DMacks (talk) 12:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)