Talk:Borys Hmyria

Requested move 23 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by a page mover) Omni Flames (talk) 04:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

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Boris Gmyrya → Borys Hmyria – Website of the Ukrainian Parliament (Official transliteration of Ukrainian names) — http://zakon0.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/55-2010-%D0%BF 78.61.204.197 (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC) --Relisted. RGloucester — ☎ 15:04, 30 May 2016 (UTC) -- Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:48, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

WP:Commonname (further discussed at Wikipedia:Official names) applies here, I think: reference works like Grove and Baker's, my several books on Shostakovich and my CD collection are unanimous in using Gmyrya, so if musicians in the west are respelling now it's news to me. Btw, you've changed the names in the article to "Borys Hmyria", which has taught me that there are more than one conventions for romanization of Ukrainian. Why exactly would the spelling needed to apply for a passport since 2014 or so be relevant to a person who died in 1969? And what would be the most appropriate spelling to use in the different context of List_of_commemorative_coins_of_Ukraine#Outstanding_Personalities_of_Ukraine? Sparafucil (talk) 23:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I have much more to learn: Ukrainian alphabet has two glyphs for Г г and Ґ ґ. In the non-soviet era would his name ever be spelled using Ghe with upturn instead of Ge (Cyrillic)? Sparafucil (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Well during the soviet era Ukrainian names were sometimes transliterated to Russian and then transliterated from Russian to Latin alphabet, but nevertheless as far as I am aware he was performing under the name Borys Hmyria (sorry if I wrote Gmyria, it was my mistake), and that was the spelling in his passport on top of that. I represent his official archive, which is lead by his wife's niece, as he did't have children of his own, we have a goal of digitalising over 600 of his records, that are now in very bad condition, so we seek consistence in the spelling of his name, therefore this is very important to us, and we will not give up. I have already requested some evidence of my words.

Letters Г г and Ґ ґ are completely different letters they sound differently, they are both present in Ukrainian alphabet. When the name is for example transliterated from Ukrainian to Russian letter Ґ ґ is replaced with Г г, as there no such neither sound or letter in Russian language.

On top of that its a common practice on Wikipedia to spell Ukrainian names under the current official transliteration system, there are numerous examples of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ukrainian_writers

Ah, I was a bit puzzled by the move request to Gmyria! Since I'm not even sure of the Ukrainian spelling, can you explain why uk:Гмиря_Борис_Романович doesn't use Ґ? It's exciting that an expert with access to so much information is interested, and I look forward to expansion of the article. I'll still request some demonstration that Hmyria is used even occasionally in the English-speaking world, which is still attached to unofficial spellings like Tchaikovsky, Chaliapin and César Cui: I just don't see a case for WP:Commonnames. Was the passport you speak of issued by the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic or the Reichskommissariat Ukraine (Hmyria being used on de:Borys Hmyrja)? Sparafucil (talk) 09:01, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Гмиря_Борис_Романович is the correct spelling, Г is H, when Ґ is G (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Ukrainian#Notes-table-1) it was always spelled this way, it has never spelled from Ґ. I was just trying to explain the difference between those letters and probably was not clear enough, sorry for that. Ukrainian Ґґ actually sounds more like Russian Гг, wheres Ukrainian Гг sound is unique and does not have any alternatives in Russian, therefore both Ukrainian Ґґ and Гг are transliterated to Russian as Гг. I am currently waiting for some references on the spelling and will post them as soon as I have them. And yes we are planing to extend an article in the near future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.61.204.197 (talk) 13:29, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Of course I reversed Ґ and Г, thanks for explaining! I still see problems with WP:Article titles: we have reliable English-language sources for Gmyrya (Taruskin uses Gmïrya) but not yet for Hmyria, and if some are found for the latter there's still the hurtle of a commonly recognizable name. Besides the considerable Shostakovich literature, an English speaker might come across Gmyrya in Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev: Commissar, 1918-1945, Volume 1 p. 594 or in various discographies. It's regrettable that an artist who sang both Russian and Ukrainian seems to be remembered abroad only for the first, but where would an English speaker stumble across Hmyria? Google can't settle this, but it does suggest one might have to be a coin collector. Sparafucil (talk) 10:09, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

• Note. Mdann52 moved the article from Boris Gmyrya to Boris Hmyria while this RM was ongoing. Jenks24 (talk) 08:33, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Indeed I did, I somehow managed to miss this... apologies, but looking at this, there is no real consensus either way here. Mdann52 (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
    • To editor Mdann52: I don't really see a problem, and yet it would be good to hear more of your rationale for renaming from "Gmyrya" to "Hmyria", i.e., how you picked it out of the nom's other-language link?  What's in your palette? Paine  15:28, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support. It's written as Borys all over the place. [1] [2] [3]. Few results come up for Boris. Google hits: Boris Hmyria = 1400. Borys Hmyria = 4840. Anarchyte (work | talk) 02:37, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.