Talk:Boshin War

Featured article review needed

This Featured article was promoted in 2006, and is not at FA standards. There is a good deal of uncited text, and a MOS review is needed. Unless someone is willing/able to bring this article to standard, it should be submitted to Featured article review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 9:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC) [1].

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Boshin War

Notified: Per Honor et Gloria, Monocrat, Enkyo2, Victuallers, Ernstkohl, Curly Turkey, WP Japan, WP MILHIST

Review section

This article has a long-standing lack of citations for significant portions. -- Beland (talk) 19:50, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Month-old talk page notification got no bites: [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:34, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

• Delist under Wikipedia: V for lack of citations. It would take a lot of work to fix this, and the original nominator from back in 2006 has long since retired. ErinRC (talk) 21:56, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

• ErinRC, please have a close look at the instructions at WP:FAR regarding the purpose of the first phase of FAR; "Keep or Delist are not declared in the FAR phase". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:44, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

• @SandyGeorgia: I'm seeing a contradiction in the FAR guidelines here. It does indeed say what you cite it as saying, but immediately below it also makes the apparently contradictory statement that The featured article removal coordinators [...] determine either that there is consensus to close during this second stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and so therefore the nomination should be moved to the third stage. I am not sure if there is a substantial difference, from the point of view of finding consensus in community discussions, between saying "I think this would take an inordinate amount of work to bring up to FA standard, and the only reason it is currently listed is because it was originally nominated back in the bad old days when we had no standards" and saying "Delist I think this would take an inordinate amount of work to bring up to FA standard, and the only reason it is currently listed is because it was originally nominated back in the bad old days when we had no standards". Is it possible the guideline you are quoting was written to apply to reviews of more recent FAs, where the notable gap between the standards of 2006 and the standards of 2020 is not also in play? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:08, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

• The spirit of the thing is that, during FAR, we specify the problems and hope someone will address them. A Your "delist" in the FAR phase won't get the article delisted. Keep can happen without moving to FARC, but Delist cannot happen until/unless the article moves to FARC. In other words, unless the article is improved, you have one has to come back during the FARC phase to enter a Delist. No need to ping me, I have the FAR watchlisted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I was asking a hypothetical about an apparent contradiction in the instructions; I'm not the same editor who already cast a "delist" !vote. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:31, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction, but perhaps that could be taken up at WT:FAR rather than here. FAR is for listing things to be improved: one can say, "I don't think this article can be improved during a FAR", and then come back during FARC to !vote "Delist", if the article moves to FARC. (If you want, you can move this whole thing, my responses included, to WT:FAR.) Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:55, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

• Move to FARC, no significant improvement, no one has engaged. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section mostly relate to sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

• Delist. Tagged for citations for over a year. One statement tagged as dubious since January. DrKay (talk) 09:26, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
  • @DrKay: I removed the dubious tag as whoever placed it didn't bother to explain why they tagged it, and it's not immediately obvious from the tagging. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
    • I think it may be in the talk archive at Talk:Boshin War/Archive 1#Weaponry? DrKay (talk) 09:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the improvements so far. There are 4 parts of the article that I don't understand:
    1. Why is the Japanese date of February 8 equivalent to March 1 in the Western calendar and are the dates in the article Japanese or Western?
    2. What does it mean to "invest" a Castle?
    3. Was Goryōkaku defended by 800 remaining men or besieged by 800 men?
    4. If Enomoto was determined to fight to the end, why did he send his code books to his opponent?
    • Trivial points that I've left because I don't like the alternatives personally: Parkes' should be Parkes's according to MOS:POSS; "summer of 1866" should be avoided according to MOS:SEASON. The quote marks within the quote marks of " 'as his equal in point of blood'." are probably unnecessary. I recommend: "as his equal in point of blood". DrKay (talk) 16:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
      • @DrKay: Answering in order:
        1. Likely due to Japan using the Lunar calendar at that time (I believe that was during the transition, or close to it). I don't know regarding the dates in the article as I didn't write it initially.
        2. Based on context within the article, I'm going to assume it is this meaning from Merriam-Webster: "[Middle French investir, from Old Italian investire, from Latin, to surround] : to surround with troops or ships so as to prevent escape or entry".
        3. I'm not sure as I didn't write that paragraph and I do not have access to that source.
        4. This is speculation based on bits of culture I've encountered over the years. I tried finding a source supporting the reasoning, but I wasn't able to. Basically, by sending the valuables to his enemy before defeat, he was placing a responsibility on his enemy to return those items to his family. If he had waited until being defeated, he could not have requested that due to no longer being on equal footing (as far as honor goes).
      • Trivial points:
        1. Fixed "Parkes'" to "Parkes's", even though it looks wrong to me.
        2. Re: "summer of 1866", I don't have access to that source, so I am uncomfortable making this change.
        3. Fixed the quotes issue.
      • Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:03, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
        • I'm not entirely happy, because I still suspect there is some confusion in the article between Western and Japanese dates, and I'm not convinced 'Naval Codes' is the best translation for whatever it was that Enomoto sent Kuroda. However, given the improvements and the lack of any definite fault, I am striking my delist comment. DrKay (talk) 14:23, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Hold off on making a decision. The MilHist project was not notified of this discussion, and they are very active and have many experts who can help. I have notified them now, and made a list of sourcing issues needing addressing. Please see Talk:Boshin War#Paragraphs needing references for more details. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Nihonjoe: holding is good, but please note that your statement above is incorrect. Here is the MILHIST notification on 29 Feb, and here is another discussion I initiated much earlier, on 29 Jan, where MILHIST declined to continue listing FARs prominently as they once did. I strongly recommend you add Wikipedia:Featured article review/notices given somewhere prominent as we work through older, neglected FAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• @SandyGeorgia: Well, I missed those. I don't have time to review every notice given for every FAR. This just happened to come across my radar. I still think time should be given to allow every paragraph to be referenced. The descriptions above of the article's "long-standing lack of citations for significant portions" is inaccurate at best. There are only eight paragraphs that don't have citations, and most of those that do have multiple citations used. That's really not all that many to fix. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• Time is always given at FAR is progress is being made; please keep this page posted every few days as improvements proceed. (Here is the archival of the notification on 8 March, so perhaps the archival time at WT:MILHIST needs to be longer.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• @SandyGeorgia: Please don't make ridiculous claims about me without foundation. Nothing in my request on the MilHist talk page or on Talk:Boshin War was in any way incorrect. I already acknowledged my error here, so following me around and making false claims regarding the veracity of my requests is simply harassment. We're all in this together, and I'm working to fix the issues raised here. Thanks. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:34, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• Have a nice day. (PS, I have this page watchlisted, as all FAR pages-- please stop pinging me.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:55, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• No problem. I did it out of courtesy. I have 18k pages on my watchlist, so sometimes pages I'm watching get lost in the shuffle. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• Update, no edits since Nihonjoe's posts. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:36, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm waiting for a book to arrive. Have a little patience, please. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
    • Actually, three books now. They should be here within the next couple weeks or so (given all the COVID-19 stuff, I don't have any way to know for sure). I've added a few refs in the meantime. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
• Holding, pending Nihonjoe receipt of books and update. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Nihonjoe is still waiting for books, and will need an extended delay. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe: any update? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I haven't received all of the books yet. No idea why, though. They haven't yet shipped. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I've addressed all of the items marked with "citation needed". Any others need work? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Awesome, Nihonjoe; I will look this weekend when I have time. Perhaps DrKay will revisit as well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Are you still planning to look over things, SandyGeorgia, or have all the concerns been addressed? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:09, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Pinging due to no response for over two weeks. Have all the concerns been addressed? Is there anything else that needs to be done in order to retain the FA designation for the article? Thanks for your time! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

My apologies for the long delay, Nihonjoe; I have added a few cn tags. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:23, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I've added citations for all of those. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 20:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Source review

• Please make sure that the books cited are sorted alphabetically
• Be consistent in whether you use cite templates for books
• For easier verification, give inline page indications for journal articles with long page ranges. In particular Ravina 2010.
• What is the rationale behind embedding long quotations in the footnotes?

I may return to have a look at the prose. Eisfbnore ^(会話) 05:17, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, the corresponding Portuguese article pt:Guerra Boshin is an FA, but was formerly demoted, before being promoted again last year. Most of the discussion was about spelling and Aportuguesamento, yet some parts of that review might be of interest. Their article is also quite well-shaped and handsome, I have to say. FWIW Eisfbnore ^(会話) 06:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

@Eisfbnore: Answering in order:

1. They are in alphabetical order by author surname (which is standard).
2. All of them use one of the citation templates.
3. I don't have access to the Ravina article. Are there any others that need this?
4. To provide context, I assume.

Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:09, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay to Keep, @DrKay: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe: I've added a couple more cn tags. I also note that the formatting of citations and references is quite inconsistent - some cleanup needed there before this can be kept. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Unless you want to do some of it, you're going to have to wait a bit. I have some real life things that are taking up my time right now. I've already done a ton, and it would be great if others found some sources for the two citations needed and helped fix the refs formatting. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I've cleaned up the refs and tagged a few that need page numbers or clarification. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm working on clearing up the citations that need page numbers. I'm not sure what to do about the ones that vaguely reference a museum exhibit (it's tagged for clarification). I'm fine with museum exhibits being cited, but there needs to be a date at least, and perhaps an archived link to their website or to a pamphlet or book from the exhibit. I'm waiting on a couple more books to arrive in order to fix the Keene reference and improve refs (perhaps even replace the museum refs). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I've updated the Keene reference that was missing page numbers, as well as the Evans and Peattie ref missing page numbers. Waiting on a a request for page numbers from someone who has access to the Polack book. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I now have copies of the Polak reference, but it's in Japanese and French, so it will take me a few days to review them and find the pieces of information that need the page numbers. Outside of that, are there any other things that need to be fixed in this article? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:07, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

I replaced one Polak reference with a couple others. There is still one of the Polak references that I can't find in the pages sent to me. I'm trying to find any other source that says that. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:23, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Outside of the "Ryozen Museum of History exhibit", all of the refs have been fixed and updated now. I can probably find refs to replace the five places this museum exhibit is used. We'll see. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

• Closing note: This removal candidate has been kept, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Parts needing work

Paragraphs needing references

In order to potentially save this article from being removed as a featured article, here's a list of the paragraphs (outside of the lead, which doesn't require references since everything in the lead should be in the body of the article) that have no references. I am dividing them by the sections where they can be found within the article.

Please make comments and suggested references within each section below so we can keep this organized. Any help is appreciated. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:35, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Resistance of the Northern Coalition

Second paragraph:

In May 1868, the daimyō of Nagaoka inflicted high losses on the Imperial troops in the Battle of Hokuetsu, but his castle ultimately fell on May 19. Imperial troops continued to progress north, defeating the Shinsengumi at the Battle of Bonari Pass, which opened the way for their attack on the castle of Aizuwakamatsu in the Battle of Aizu in October 1868, thus making the position in Sendai untenable.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Final losses and surrender

Second paragraph:

Imperial forces soon consolidated their hold on mainland Japan, and, in April 1869, dispatched a fleet and an infantry force of 7,000 to Ezo, starting the Battle of Hakodate. The Imperial forces progressed swiftly and won the naval engagement at Hakodate Bay, Japan's first large-scale naval battle between modern navies, as the fortress of Goryōkaku was surrounded with 800 remaining men. Seeing the situation had become desperate, the French advisers escaped to a French ship stationed in Hakodate Bay—Coëtlogon, under the command of Dupetit Thouars—from where they were shipped back to Yokohama and then France. The Japanese requested that the French advisers be given judgement in France; however, due to popular support in France for their actions, the former French advisers in Japan were not punished for their actions.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:10, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Aftermath

First paragraph:

Following victory, the new government proceeded with unifying the country under a single, legitimate and powerful rule by the Imperial Court. The emperor's residence was effectively transferred from Kyoto to Edo at the end of 1868, and the city renamed to Tokyo. The military and political power of the domains was progressively eliminated, and the domains themselves were soon transformed into prefectures, whose governors were appointed by the emperor.

 Done Ref added. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:27, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Fourth paragraph:

The Imperial side did not pursue its objective to expel foreign interests from Japan, but instead shifted to a more progressive policy aiming at the continued modernization of the country and the renegotiation of unequal treaties with foreign powers, later under the "rich country, strong army" (富国強兵, fukoku kyōhei) motto.

 Done Ref added. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Later depictions

Second paragraph:

Such Japanese depictions include numerous dramatizations, spanning many genres. Notably, Jirō Asada wrote a four-volume novel of the account, Mibu Gishi-den. A film adaptation of Asada's work, directed by Yōjirō Takita, is known as When the Last Sword Is Drawn. A ten-hour television jidaigeki based on the same novel starred Ken Watanabe. The 2001 Goryōkaku film is another jidaigeki highlighting the resistance in Hokkaidō. Among Japanese anime, Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto in part dramatizes the Boshin War, while Rurouni Kenshin is set 10 years after. The Rurouni Kenshin OVA Trust & Betrayal is set during the Boshin War and depicts several events of the war (such as the raid on the daimyō of Satsuma's residence and the failed boarding of the Kōtetsu at the Battle of Miyako Bay).

 Done Refs added, removed The 2001 Goryōkaku film is another jidaigeki highlighting the resistance in Hokkaidō. Among Japanese anime, Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto in part dramatizes the Boshin War, while Rurouni Kenshin is set 10 years after. The Rurouni Kenshin OVA Trust & Betrayal is set during the Boshin War and depicts several events of the war (such as the raid on the daimyō of Satsuma's residence and the failed boarding of the Kōtetsu at the Battle of Miyako Bay). as I was unable to find refs for these parts. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Third paragraph:

Western interpretations include the 2003 American film The Last Samurai directed by Edward Zwick, which combines into a single narrative historical situations belonging both to the Boshin War, the 1877 Satsuma Rebellion, and other similar uprisings of ex-samurai during the early Meiji period. The elements of the movie pertaining to the early modernization of Japan's military forces as well as the direct involvement of foreign (mostly French) forces relate to the Boshin War and the few years leading to it. However, the suicidal stand of traditionalist samurai forces led by Saigō Takamori against the modernized Imperial army relate to the much later Satsuma Rebellion.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Fourth paragraph:

The main campaign in the 2012 expansion to Creative Assembly's game Total War: Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai depicts the Boshin War. Players can choose from various historical clans, such as the Imperial Satsuma or the shogunate Aizu.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Weapons

First paragraph:

The forces of Chōshū and Satsuma were fully modernized with Armstrong Guns, Minié rifles and one Gatling gun. The shogunate forces had been slightly lagging in term of equipment, although the French military mission to Japan (1867–68) had recently trained a core elite force. The shōgun also relied on troops supplied by allied domains, which were not necessarily as advanced in terms of military equipment and methods, composing an army that had both modern and outdated elements.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Individual guns

First paragraph:

Numerous types of more or less modern smoothbore guns and rifles were imported, from countries as varied as France, Germany, the Netherlands, Britain, or the United States, and coexisted with traditional types such as the tanegashima matchlock.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Warships

First paragraph:

In the area of warships also, some of the most recent ironclads such as the Kōtetsu coexisted with older types of steamboats and even traditional sailboats. The shogunate initially had a rather strong edge in warships, and it had the vision to order the state-of-the-art French-made Kōtetsu, although the ship was blocked from delivery by foreign powers on ground of neutrality once the conflict had started, and was ultimately remitted to the Imperial faction shortly after the Battle of Toba–Fushimi.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:38, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Uniforms

First paragraph:

Uniforms were Western-style for modernized troops (usually dark, with variations in the shape of the helmet: tall conical for Satsuma, flat conical for Chōshū, rounded for the shogunate). Officers of the shogunate often wore French and British uniforms. Traditional troops however retained their samurai clothes. Some of the headgear for some of the Imperial troops was quite peculiar, involving the use of long, colored, "bear" hair. The "red bear" (赤熊, shaguma) wigs indicate officers from Tosa, the "white bear" (白熊, haguma) wigs officers from Chōshū, and the "black bear" (黒熊, koguma) wigs officers from Satsuma.

 Done ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Firearm image

The firearms in question.

This image is used in this article, both in the English and the Japanese versions. The English caption stated Guns of the Boshin War from top to bottom: a Snider, a Starr, a Gewehr, though I changed that to Guns of the Boshin War, from top to bottom: a Snider, a Starr, and an unknown musket. The Japanese caption states 戊辰戦争の銃はスナイドル銃、Starr carbine、ドライゼ銃. A ドライゼ銃 is a Dreyse needle gun. As I mentioned, I changed the caption because the firearm in the image is not labeled (the other two have labels from the museum clearly visible) and it looks nothing like any images I can find of the Dreyse needle gun. It appears to be a flintlock of some sort, but since it isn't labeled, it's hard to say what kind it is. I'm open to different wording. Thoughts? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:06, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Removed parts

The following parts have been removed from the article because sources were unable to be located. They can be added again once refs are found. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Individual guns

• Removed from the end of the first paragraph: "These were aged and had limited capabilities, with an effective lethal range of about 50 meters, and a firing rate of about 2 rounds per minute."

Later depictions

• Removed from the middle of the second paragraph: "Later Japanese depictions of the war tended to be highly romanticized, showing the shogunal side fighting with traditional methods, against an already modernized Imperial side."