Talk:Botanical identity of soma–haoma/Archives/2020

Discussion

I believe there is too much anti-mushroom sentiment on this page, and too much pro-ephedra ideas. Ephedra does not grow on mountain tops. One of the most frequent traits of Soma is that it grows on the "mountain-top."

http://huxley.net/soma needs to be incorporated. --Espoo 09:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"Ephedra does not grow on mountain tops" - Bullshit. It does not grow in the snow. As long as temperatures don't go below freezing the stuff can grow literally anywhere provided it's dry but not too dry.

If there is one thing that can be almsot certainly excluded by now it is fly agaric. If you don't believe me, try the stuff out and attempt to ride into battle like Indra when you're high on it (DON'T.) Even if the active compounds in the 'shroom can act as a stimulant, dosage varies so much that it is essentially impossible to guarantee that the hallucinogenic effect will never manifest. Yet there is only one single scrap of evidence to suggest soma was hallucinogenic, and that could have been produced by several plants (or shrooms).

If messing around with fly agaric is too tough for you, simply take some of 'em and beat them, energetically, for hours. If you're able to produce something that needs to be strained before it can be used, you're a better man than I am.

Also, the color is way too far off for soma to be fly agaric. If you eat something like fly agaric that has the color of soma, odds are you won't survive that experience. Dysmorodrepanis 04:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The standard hypothesis these days is ephedra. The article should make this clear. --dab (𒁳) 17:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The "weapon" that Indra used was the Vajra, which emitted LIGHTNING BOLTS. It should be obvious that this was NOT a physical battle. Soma brings floods of LIGHT. It should be obvious that Soma has to be an Entheogen.Somaeye (talk) 08:30, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

And I'll tell you what else, this article should not be devoting an absurd number of paragraphs to an unverifiable 19th century account of some swami's "firsthand experience." Come on! <eleland/talkedits> 05:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Why not? Almost everything we know about soma comes from ancient accounts. This is a firsthand account given by a well-known individual who claims to have seen it firsthand, and has a detailed account of its physical characteristics. I fail to see why it is not relevant. It adds useful, if perhaps controversial, information to our knowledge of this plant. rahulkamath (talk) 23:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Because most of that prose appears to be your original research and conclusion, Rahul. Is there likely a useful place for the account? Sure. Should one citation plus your research equal 20% of this article? I'd posit not.JGray (talk) 08:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I find your argument somewhat misguided. If this account makes up 20% of the article, it's only because more has not been added elsewhere. Indeed, little is known about this plant, so any account that has detailed information would be valuable to someone wanting to know about theories on the identity of this plant. Of course it is important to emphasize that this is only one person's account; but I don't see how it is either irrelevant or overkill, given the limited knowledge we have of the identity of the Soma plant. (talk) 23:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The etymology of Vedic "Soma" as a loanword from Finno-Uralic has been proposed by a Baltic language philologist J. Pashka. He cites widespread existing Finno-Uralic examples - Volgaic Erzya, Mokša "Sjuma / Səma" hewn wooden trough, Estonian "Soim" hewn wooden manger, Khanty "Soma" mortar - which he contends were objects used in production of an Amanita muscaria beverage by the Ural Mountains. He also cites loanswords from a pre-Vedic Indo-Iranian language into many of the same Finno-Uralic languages (ie: Finnish "Kekri") which he correlates with archaeological data to support his proposed etymology of Vedic "Soma" from Finno-Uralic. In one of his books (Aramaic Gospels & Acts - Text and Translation), it mentions that he was formally schooled in Sanskrit at the University of Arizona. I found it by Googling "Soma" and "Uralic". It is a much better supported etymology of Vedic "Soma" than the one Wiki offers. To quote the proposal, "Indo-Aryan "Soma" preserved the native Uralic word for a hewn wooden trough that was used as the dried Fly Agaric (Amanita muscaria) was pressed with stones in water. (re: Khanty "Soma" )"- from Virdainas © 1994, 2nd Edition, by Jos. Pashka. It is an interesting perspective. Sudowite 10:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Disputed Discussion Section

The article states: "Soma was generally assumed to be hallucinogenic, based on RV 8.48 . But note that this is the only evidence of hallucinogenic properties, in a book full of hymns to Soma." I do not see anything in 8.48 that is that different from many other verses. I assume the verse 3 "We have drunk Soma and become immortal; we have attained the light, the Gods discovered." verse 6 "Make me shine bright like fire produced by friction: give us a clearer sight and make us better." and verse 15 On all sides,. Soma, thou art our life-giver: aim of all eyes, light-finder, come within us." are what is being thought as sounding like evidence of Entheogenic properties (?) However, these types of verses are found in many other hymns e.g., Book 9 IV 1 O Soma flowing on thy way, win thou and conquer high renown; And make us better than we are. 2. Win thou the light, win heavenly light, and, Soma, all felicities; And make us better than we are. V 1 ENKINDLED, Pavamana, Lord, sends forth his light on, every side VIII, 9 May we obtain thee, Indra's drink, who viewest men and findest light, IX 8 Make the paths ready for a hymn newer and newer evermore: Make the lights shine as erst they shone. 9. Give, Pavamana, high renown, give kine and steeds and hero sons: Win for us wisdom, win the light. X 4 Pressed for the gladdening draught, the drops flow forth abundantly with song, The Soma juices in a stream. 5. Winning Vivasvān's glory and producing Morning's light, the Suns Pass through the openings of the cloth. XLII 1 ENGENDERING the Sun in floods, engendering heaven's lights,

In any case, I cannot picture Indra and Zarathustra extracting Soma/Haoma in a meth-lab!

And speed will never produce a claim of "Engendering the Sun in floods, engendering heaven's Lights."Somaey (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)Somaeye (talk) 09:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup

Lots of formatting issues here. Viriditas (talk) 07:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Soma = Haoma = Huo Ma?

In China, cannabis hemp used for sacramental burning (incense) purposes was called Huo Ma, literally "fire hemp". —Whig (talk) 23:48, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

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