Talk:Bother (song)

Misplaced genre

The genre is definitely not "soft rock" if judging by what I've heard of soft rock songs, while it's not exactly a rock ballad either. I would place it more in the alternative metal category, because of the strong bass sound. The album that the song appears on is placed in the alternative metal category, that's what I believe this song should be placed in as well. Coryphantha Talk 22:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Genre & release date

So I noticed there was a little dispute going on regarding the song's release date and genre. I am keen to help resolve this dispute, by discussing it instead of repeatedly reverting. Providing reliable sources to back the desired version would certainly help, which I will try and do myself. So far, I have been unable to find any reliable sources that back the opinion of this song being "hard rock", or any sources for any other genre for that matter, same goes for the release date. But I will continue to search. Magatta (talk) 20:22, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Apple Music has the album listed hard rock and the song rock

Discogs has it listed as Hard Rock

Release date for the album on the album wiki says August 27, 2002

Release date for the spider man soundtrack was April 30, 2002 Nickoustic (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

·Discogs cannot be used as a source, because per WP:USERG and WP:ALBUMAVOID, where it states that "Info is user-submitted/uploaded and fails WP:USERG", it is unsuitable for use as a source.

·WP:ALBUMAVOID also states that "Online retailers such as iTunes and Amazon.com should also be avoided," which is what Apple music falls under, so we shouldn't cite that either.

·I have found a few sources that back the fact of this song being officially released as a CD single in March 2003.[1][2][3] And the sources also say that the album and the Spider-man soundtrack were both released in 2002, but the single itself was released later in 2003. If you feel this is incorrect then please provide your sources to say otherwise, but don't use the aforementioned sources, which I have explained why. Magatta (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

·If no reliable sources can be found to support the song's genre, then I would suggest we leave the genre field blank until one shows up. Magatta (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

So you mean to say that it was released in 2002? Which is what I was editing it too? Lol thank you for finally googling it instead of just reverting edits…. And you’re supposed to avoid online retailers? Why? Clearly the people running Wiki, and yourself, have never released music to Spotify, or Apple, or Amazon. The artist or the label that’s putting the song on the platform picks the genre… so can argue that all you want but it is what it is. All Music has it listed as Rock and Alt Rock and Heavy Metal which is a source that’s accepted by Wiki… Nickoustic (talk) 22:18, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify….. the single was released in 2003… but it was released on the album on August 27, 2002 and on the soundtrack for Spider Man on April 30, 2002. The single date isn’t when it was released…. Technically April 30, 2002 is when it was officially released. So really we should edit it to say April 30, 2002… Nickoustic (talk) 22:22, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

No, my point was that the album itself and the soundtrack were both released in 2002, but the single was released LATER in 2003, as backed by the sources I provided, so I'm still standing by my point. Online retailers cannot be used because WP:ALBUMAVOID, which I am inclined to believe you are yet to read, states that "It can be seen as inappropriate to directly link to a site where one can purchase the subject in question," why is they are discouraged. Also I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Allmusic isn't exactly a reputable source either, where WP:ALBUMAVOID states "AllMusic's genre sidebar should be avoided. Previous discussions at WP:ALBUMS and RSN have evinced that they can be incongruous with the reviewer's prose, which should take precedent over the sidebar," which seems to be what you have done here. Additionally, you've failed to actually cite your sources when you made the edits, which isn't going to win my support, as it could still be deemed as original research. Please read WP:CITE to view the policy on this.

For the record, more often than not, singles from many albums are released as standalone singles some time after the album, which can sometimes be up to a year, which seems to be the case here. The album release date does not equate that of a single. Magatta (talk) 22:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, I am proposed to reverting the article back to the way it was before your edits, as they don't seemed to be properly sourced. Magatta (talk) 22:47, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

The album is when the song was released…. Really not hard to follow and revert it back all you want. March 2003 isn’t the correct release date whether you like it or not. Your source even says it’s not 2003…. The single does not constitute the release date… the first album it appears on does… and that’s actually not even the bands album. It’s the Spider-Man soundtrack which came out earlier in the year… so the official release date for the song is April 30, 2002. I also got the genre listing from All Music.. and that’s an accepted source lol so be mad all you want buddy.. the song was released on April 30, 2002 and it’s Rock - Alt Rock - Heavy Metal Nickoustic (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Also… All Music is listed here as a generally reliable source lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ALBUMAVOID Nickoustic (talk) 23:05, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

And I don’t really care if I win your support. You’re not doing a great job as it stands, so I don’t exactly want your support. Facts don’t have feelings in case you weren’t aware Nickoustic (talk) 23:08, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Question for ya.. So if Stone Sour had an album for sale on their official website… I couldn’t go on their official website and pull any information from it because they’re making a profit off it? That’s exactly what I meant earlier when I said the people who made that policy, including yourself, have no idea how the music world works. Nickoustic (talk) 23:14, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Since you were so kind to link this… here’s a snippet of what this actually says… and then I’ll break it down a bit because you don’t seem to understand..

Online retailers such as iTunes and Amazon.com should also be avoided. It can be seen as inappropriate to directly link to a site where one can purchase the subject in question. Wikipedia's role should not be used to advance the sale of an album nor to promote one retailer over another. Generally speaking, all of the information found on online retailers can be found in other sources.

So meaning that using a reference link from these sites isn’t generally accepted because they can buy it from the link. So they want you to try and find other sources that aren’t linking you to a place to buy the song. That doesn’t mean the information isn’t valid and can’t be used to cross reference dates or whatever… you said I clearly didn’t read it but it took me 2 seconds to find that lol guess I answered my own question about the Stone Sour website. Turns out you can use information from sites like that… just preferred that you find sources without links to buy the song lol Nickoustic (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Crazy stuff, reading all this on ANI. So is seems the confusion is over when a song was available on an album (2002) vs. when it was released as a single (2003) ? Zaathras (talk) 14:59, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Yep. They don't seem to understand that a single is a distinct release separate from "appeared on an album" or "appeared on a soundtrack" or that we should have a reliable source for it. Woodroar (talk) 15:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)