Talk:Bothrops atrox

Common names

It seems rather harsh to say that calling this species "fer-de-lance" is mistaken, especially since the name has been used for centuries and is in up-to-date dictionaries. Is there some authority for the common names of snakes? Even if there is, I'd say it's more NPOV to say that it's "popularly" called the fer-de-lance. —JerryFriedman 20:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Fer-de-lance is much more common. I am a bit of a hobby herpetologist, and have seen the term Lancehead only once ever before this page.--70.57.161.181 02:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes you will find dictionaries describing a fer-de-lance as Bothrops atrox. You will find several snake books describing the fer-de-lance as Bothrops asper. The truth is fer-de-lance is a "French" name not used by locals for the identification of either snake. In English however, it IS common to refer to a certian South American pit viper as a fer-de-lance. The question is,which one? Now if you wish to refer to all Bothrops sp. as fer-de-lance, be my guest but it gets a little confusing don't you think? I don't wish to sound harsh but numerous herpetologist as well as several well informed hobbiest will tell you that the only real fer-de-lance is Bothrops lanceolatus. Incidentally ALL Borthrops species are commonly refered to as lanceheads due to the apparent lance (or spear) shape of the head. As a matter of fact, thats what "fer-de-lance" means "iron of lance" (or something to that effect).As for an authority on common names... you can try venomousreptiles.org. I know they've had this topic in the past. As for ld-50, BGF's website venomdoc.com is a great sorce but pay particular attention to the subcutanious routes of injection since almost all bites are of that variaty.

I asked at kingsnake.com and they agreed with you in reserving "fer-de-lance" for B. lanceolatus, although they didn't go so far as to call it "the only real fer-de-lance". However, many scientific sites on the Web use "fer-de-lance" for some Bothrops species. I haven't seen anything to cast any doubt on what's written about the name (mostly by me) at Bothrops lanceolatus.

No one has suggested using "fer-de-lance" for all Bothrops species—just asper ("Central American fer-de-lance"), atrox, caribbaeus, and lanceolatus. However, contrary to what you wrote, calling them all "fer-de-lance" doesn't seem any more confusing than calling them all "lanceheads".

Maybe Fer-de-lance (currently a redirect to Bothrops lanceolatus) should discuss the name and the latter article should just discuss the Martinican snake. Maybe I'll do that. —JerryFriedman 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but when someone refers to a lancehead, it's just that A lancehead; usually not species specific often refuring to any member of the genus Bothrops. Not dissimilar to the wordTodg 22:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC) "rattlesnake" also used to describe a variety of crotalids with a similar appendage. However, when the phrase Fer-de-lance is used, often times it is preceeded by the word "the" implying that it is "the one and only" hence confusion as to which snake that term rightfully belongs. Also, there are other sources besides kingsnake.com. try venomousreptiles.org or venomdoc.comTodg 22:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think "the fer-de-lance" dates to when all of these species were lumped. Thanks for the suggestion—I just tried venomousreptiles.org and if that doesn't shed any light I could try the other one too (or you could). —JerryFriedman 16:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Now I am not a snake person, I've just spent much time living in mortal fear of both Bothropos at various times (I am an archaeologist). I noticed that the Bothrops asper article, however, does not mention that it too is called "Barba" locally...well at least in guatemala it is. I suppose that is short for Barba Amarilla but I've never heard anyone say more than Barba. Would anyone like to back me up and add it?

It's discussions like this one that make me feel that the decision to use scientific names instead of common names for the titles of these articles was the right one. I get the impression that the same names are often used for many different Bothrops species, so making disambiguation pages for them (i.e. Fer-de-lance) definitely seems like the best solution to me.

Still, even though I don't think common names should ever be taken that seriously -- especially in such cases -- I treat them just like I do all other information when researching a species. Never assume anything -- even a common name -- and include it in an article just because it looks right. Assumption is the mother of all mistakes. Therefore, I suggest we all stick to what's been published, quote from that and cite our references. --Jwinius 01:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel that well-known common names are important information. Many laypeople (a class that includes me) who get redirected here from a search for a Trinidadian "mapepire balsain" will want to know that it's also called fer-de-lance, a name that lets them know they've read about it elsewhere, quite possibly with a shudder. I also think it's important to include common names in English-speaking countries where species are found, which is why I put "mapepire balsain" and "labaria" in the article in the first place and was glad when John Hill gave the surprising pronunciation of the former. Not only is it interesting, but it also allows people to look for local writings and understand local conversations on the subject.

You're quite right about references, so I'll add some for "labaria" better than I did before.

I'm not sure we need names in languages other than English, so I'm not so much in favor of adding barba as suggested above. —JerryFriedman 02:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a number of Spanish and local names for them have been adopted into the English language; some are pretty well established. For example, the names jararaca, jararacussu, barba-amarilla, urutu, jararaca pintada and cascabel are all mentioned in Poisonous Snakes of the World (US Navy, 1965, 1991) as primary common names. However, I don't like to mention names such as fer-de-lance and lancehead at the top of the page, since these have been used for too many other species. If a name has been applied to more than one taxon, I like to create disambiguation pages for them, such as puff adder and rock viper.

As far as I'm concerned, even local common names are important, if only for reference purposes. I also create redirects for these and all other common names. You have to be carefull, though: some of those local names that you see associated with a certain species turn out to mean nothing more than "snake". Those are not worth including in my opinion -- they have to be more specific.

What I've been doing so far is to mention the most popular English common names at the very top of the page -- preferably ones that are relatively unique to the species. If there are so many that the first line will likely be caused to wrap around, I create a separate common names section below, where I continue and also place any local language common names. Some examples of this approach are Vipera berus and Daboia. --Jwinius 15:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "mapepire balsain"

Hi. I was glad to see the pronunciation of "mapepire balsain" at Bothrops atrox, especially since I would never have guessed it. Would you mind adding which syllables are accented? You could capitalize them or say something like "with the accent on the last syllable in both words" (if that happens to be right). I'm lost at pronouncing the name without that. —JerryFriedman 00:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jerry. I was very pleased to get your note. I wasn't sure whether the Trinidadian names of snakes would be of any interest to readers - so it is good to hear from you. I have updated the articles on both the Fer de lance or Bothrops atrox and on the South American bushmaster Lachesis muta. I have added the stressed syllables in capitals as you suggested and provided an extra local name for the South American bushmaster (mapapire grande). I used to have to handle (and sometimes find and catch) both these species and remove and preserve parasites found on them when I worked for the Trinidad Regional Virus Laboratory in the 1950s - so I am well aware of the common names for them. Mendes, John. 1986. Cote ce Cote la: Trinidad & Tobago Dictionary, Arima, Trinidad, p. 95, gives some pronunciations but no indication of stress. I will also paste this dialog on both articles' Discussion Pages in case anyone wonders why I have bothered with such details or wonders how I am so sure of the local names and pronunciations. I hope you don't mind. Cheers, John Hill 03:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Description

Isn't it strange that although the names lancehead and/or fer-de-lance refer to the shape of the snake's head, there is no mention about this in the description? I have read articles mentioning the arrow-head or lance-blade shape of the snake's head and wonder if the feature is distinctive enough to be used for identification.

Mirrordor 23:19, 21 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirrordor (talk • contribs)

venom

124 milligrams (1.91 gr) ???? if anything other than gram is meant by 'gr', e.g. 'grain' that should be clarified

-- Yeah what the hell is a "gr"? Texting taught them to be too lazy to type the whole word. Theaveng (talk) 13:22, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

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