Talk:Bradgate Park

Geology

Taking up Ivesfreak's challenge, I have attempted something more substantial on the geology. RobinLeicester (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Great job whoever wrote this article. I live in Leicester and can see old John on the western horizon. It looks particularly lovely lately with the rape fields in bloom. Hopefully this can be made longer in the future - Bradgate visitors centre is a veritable mine of information. Ivesfreak 21:24, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Robin has done a really excellent job. Like Ivesfreak, I live close to Bradgate. In September 2010 I went to a talk given by John Martin of the Bradgate trust on the Geology of the park.

The leaflet with the talk emphasised Bradgate's education value.

“Bradgate ...is one of the best places anywhere for discovering the changing landscape of one part of the Earth’s crust through geological time. ..This is probably a better story and a longer time span than can easily be seen in any other one place in Britain.” The oldest surface rocks in Bradgate were formed some 550 million years ago (Precambrian) by ash falls from the Bardon Hill volcano 2 km to the west. The area was submerged beneath an ocean until 225 million years ago when it lay some 12° south of the equator. The present surface has red sediment from a Triassic desert from this time and the river Lin has the remains of an ancient wadi. The area was again submerged until 55 million years ago and in the last million years shows evidence of glacial erosion.

I'm not a geologist but given the historic importance of the Precambrian fossils it seems reasonable that geology should be the dominant section, it could even become a featured article if Charnwood becomes a World Heritage site.

It may need a map such as the one on the leaflet. I did attempt to see if I could get John Martin to take some interest in the article but no joy. There are no copyright makings on the leaflet, I could give the trust a ring and see if they would release the map. I could also email the leaflet if anyone wants it for their own use.

JRPG (talk) 17:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree a map would be helpful. Carney's paper, that was my principle source, has a very good map. Maybe he would have or produce a version for the page. Thanks for putting the original text above. This is my first attempt at editing, so am clumsily trampling over all sorts of good practices.

I left out the cheerful quote - and reference to the leaflet, because it has no author or date, so feels like a slightly tricky citation. Also a grand claim like that would be much better from a more disinterested source than the people who run Bradgate. If anyone has a recent general geology book, with a similar statement, that would be a much stronger case.

Final point - I agree with the suggestion that geology needs to figure strongly, but there is plenty more to be said about the history, wildlife, etc as well. (Declaration of interest: I have run a very small publishing business that has produced local books on the subject, so may not be the right person to be citing them. More details if people are interested.)

RobinLeicester (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the wp:coi advice. I'll watch you! Your books aren't self published and you haven't given a link to Amazon so there isn't a problem with what you've written -which for a first time effort is magnificent. I saw a number of first articles written by known experts on Equitable Life which were utter disasters due to WP:POV problems or lack of citations.

Re the leaflet, I suffered the senior moment that I'm allowed to have occasionally -and forgot to include the title, it doesn't have author or date and isn't easily obtained so removing it is reasonable.

With the title and publisher, it's a legitimate quote particularly if it isn't controversial. I have also cited one of the guides to St Pauls cathedral on Claude Auchinleck and a blue plaque. If you just remove a citation without stating a reason, people will query your motives.

If you agree, and it blends in with existing text, I'll try and add the line in quotes from the leaflet to establish notability.

Can you get a map yourself? You need a prescribed declaration renouncing copyright. I'll help if necessary. JRPG (talk) 22:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

To clarify coi - I did not publish Carney, and have no connection with him. I have published other books under Kairos Press imprint. Carney's map is included in the online document cited. I have sent an email to him at BGS to see if a map can be made available. I suspect the survey will be resistant.

I think putting the quote back in would be well worth doing, but would still rather see something from a more independent source, to put its importance in a wider context. The problem is so much of the really significant finds are very recent, and authors probably talk about Charnwood in general. I will see if I can get hold of the 1994 booklet by McGrath.

I also removed the '18th C' note about the walls, as this belongs in the History section, which says they are 19th C. I will try and check sometime.

RobinLeicester (talk) 16:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Robin. I realise that you didn't publish Carney. From WP:COI

"Editors with COIs who wish to edit responsibly are strongly encouraged to follow Wikipedia policies and best practices scrupulously. They are also encouraged to disclose their interest on their user pages and also on the talk page of the related article they are editing, and to request others' views, particularly if those edits may be contested. Most Wikipedians will appreciate your honesty."

You have done exactly that and I don't have any problems with you quoting from your books. For the record, archaeology groups are also hopeful about Bradgate as a number of ancient tracks cross it. Those edits are a long time off though.

JRPG (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Got an email back from Carney - no chance of BGS map for use on Wikipedia. But he said he was pleased with the article, made a few minor corrections, which I have now incorporated, and finished by saying "I liked your site and especially the images." which puts my text in its place! I have also got hold of MCGrath booklet, and included a bit of extra info and ref.

RobinLeicester (talk) 19:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Most people will have learnt a lot from your text and rather less from the photos. Not so Mr Carney, hence his remark. The yellow clad polar explorer in the winter scene is my other half and I will add the rough camera coordinates. Bradgate has the remains of half a U shaped glacial valley which I think is nearby. JRPG (talk) 01:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks good! May need to address the whitespace/picture layout though.

The map could be extracted from the infobox, and be put as an image below it - which might also feel more logical - I had asumed the template would make the neatest job, but I agree it seems a bit compressed.78.144.30.2 (talk) 22:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC) (sorry, didn't realise I was logged out. RobinLeicester (talk) 00:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC))

Access

Apologies for the addition of public transport links, but as a non-car owner, I'm so tired of seeing directions to places that assume that everyone has a car.

Error in dates

...the construction of Bradgate House was begun in 1490 by Sir John Grey, 7th Baron Ferrers of Groby, the husband of Elizabeth Woodville...

This is an error, as Sir John Grey died on 22 February 1461. Webhat 04:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

... and as Sir John Grey of Groby was not Baron Ferrers of Groby. I've removed the date 1490. Xn4 01:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It was his son, Thomas Grey, who had the house built, between 1490 and the early 1500s.--Michig (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The Urals

Firstly its good to see this article being expanded. Thanks Michig.
Leicestershire's hills, along with high points near the East Coast, lie above the European Plain. I've heard it said that Bradgate is the highest spot East of the Urals. Is there a respectable reference for this? JRPG (talk) 13:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Since Bradgate doesn't even have the highest points in Leicestershire (that honour goes to Bardon Hill), and lies to the West of the Urals, this can't be true. Apparently Burrough Hill in East Leicestershire is the higher than any point to its East until you get well into mainland Europe, so this could be what you're thinking of?--Michig (talk) 13:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

A senior moment, West of the Urals of course. Wind chill factor on the top last week felt like Siberia! Regards JRPG (talk) 14:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

I thought it might add to the geographic content and standard format to use an Infobox at top right. This basically expands the coords and picture with a few extra details, including a location map. Please undo or adapt if you think it inapproriate. I have used the Infobox UK Feature, which gives a bare minimum of details. More could be entered via the Property box for example, but that could look a bit overdetailed for Bradgate. I removed the items that were duplicated by the template, ie {{coord|52|41|30.00|N|1|13|0.00|W|display=title}} [[Image:Bradgate park rocks.jpg|thumb|right|Rocks, Old John and the War Memorial]] The template has scope for a further picture and extra captions RobinLeicester (talk) 00:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to add the info box. Extra picture which were illustrative of geology i.e. show precambrain outcrops etc. would be useful.

For reasons which are beyond me, it is acceptable to sketch maps etc. quoting a source. You can't scan them.

I'm not able to draw and don't have a proper grasp of geology. If you email me and you want it I can send you a scan of the leaflet which also has the phone number for the Bradgate trust.

Given your work expanding this article it might qualify for a wp:DYK entry.JRPG (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

If I can find some time i will sort out a general map and a geology map. With OS Opendata base maps, it should be possible to produce something quite convincing and legal. Regarding DYK, I would suggest the History/House section needs a bit of work before that - perhaps making Bradgate House a subheading, and then extra subheadings for Old John, the Reservoir and Public ownership, for example. RobinLeicester (talk) 13:30, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Infobox Park seems to make a lot of sense. I have added some more details to it, some of which may be useable by mobile devices in some way. RobinLeicester (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

History

I have attempted a more logical sub-heading structure for the various elements in the History section, sorted out a few of the facts and expanded some of the information. Would some extra photos be useful? There's plenty in wikimedia to select from. RobinLeicester (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Any photo which illustrates an article section or seasonal aspect of Bradgate is useful. In future we may have to consider Wikipedia:Article size normally around 30K as we're 22k. The geology is what distinguishes Bradgate from numerous other country parks with a stately home and is, I think, the logical place to split. JRPG (talk) 13:06, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I have referenced Squires (2002) to support someone's anonymous edit (15th Apr) of 1520 as completion date of the house. It is more precise than Squires claims, but in the right ball park. Is there a citation that gives a substantiated completion date? RobinLeicester (talk) 23:59, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Tyburn

I have read various accounts of what the small wooded area known as Tyburn was used for. Nothing to do with hanging criminals, but some sources state that it was used to castrate young hounds, being far enough away from the kennels that their cries wouldn't be heard by the other dogs (Stevenson and Squires, 1999), or to hang old hounds. Are either of these really credible? Why would old hounds be hanged anyway? --Michig (talk) 12:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Information centre opened July 2016

I intend to add details of the new information centre and expand the article using the centre as a source. The new archaeology info makes it well worth a visit. Having just noted Robin's earlier comments, if Leiecester university are correct then the archaeology is almost as stunning as the geology and of national significance. JRPG (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

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Take down this article

I think that we should consider taking this article down in protest. According to the BBC, Bradgate Park are claiming that the image of Old John is a trademark. They seem very confused over their understanding of the law but they are bullying semi-professional artists to pay 100 pounds but ignoring Facebook, Twitter and other commercial social media aggregators. In my opinion this is an unfair extension of UK law to legalise what would otherwise be demanding money with menaces. According to the trust's interpretation of the law we should take down this article and every picture that may include a pic of Old John on Wikipedia in all languages and on commons. I suggest that we comply with their unreasonable request in protest. Discuss this on Old John talk page, and then raise an RFC to gain consensus. Victuallers (talk) 08:47, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I can't really believe that the trust have any legal rights over it since it was given to the people of Leicestershire by Charles Bennion. Personally I'm more concerned with their slaughter of 'wild' deer for profit. --Michig (talk) 17:33, 22 February 2018 (UTC)