Talk:Brake (Anderson)

Should this page be deleted? And if so, how?

I saw that some months ago, User:DragonflySixtyseven simply deleted the entire contents of this page and turned it into a redirect to the Poul Anderson page. There might be valid reasons to think that this page should be deleted - but if so, Wikipedia has established procedures for deleting pages, which include a discussion and debate among Wikipedians before the decision is taken. The procedure for deleting pages is NOT for one person to make a unilateral act without asking anybody else's opinion. So, I have now reverted the change and restored the page. If User:DragonflySixtyseven still thinks this page should not exist - there is the proper procedure thorough which it can be done (provided, of course, that other Wikipedians concur). Blanche of King's Lynn (talk) 12:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

When you misuse specialized terminology, this can result in confusion. I did not delete the page, I converted it into a redirect; if it had been deleted, you would not have been able to revert it, because you would not have been able to access the content. That's what "deletion" means. That said: this article consists of a) an overly lengthy plot summary, b) a ton of original research, and c) zero references to any sources. There's a link to the ISFDB, but all that goes to show is that the story exists, which is not enough for a Wikipedia article about a work of fiction, otherwise we might as well just mirror the ISFDB as a whole. There was originally a big bunch of cited critical analysis in the article, but it was cited to a source which appears to not exist, so that's out. I could find nothing else except that Donald Moffitt once included "Brake" on a list of "ingenious" stories about visits to Jupiter. I like Poul Anderson. I've read a lot of Poul Anderson stories. I've written an article about a Poul Anderson story. When I read on Usenet that Poul Anderson was dying, I sent him a fan letter. But there's nothing here to support an article. DS (talk) 13:17, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I know that when you don't delete a page but just turn it into a redirect, in principle it is not the same. In principle, in the one case the content is completely and irrevocably deleted, and in the other case the content is still there, hidden in the history. That is how it is in principle. In practice, the effect is exactly the same. A person looking into Wikipedia and getting into the Poul Anderson via the redirect would not dream of looking into the history of the redirect page - not unless he or she knew that once upon a time there had been something else there (as I did). The practical effect is the same as deletion - contents which once existed and were accessible to anyone entering Wikipedia are not accessible any more, and no one could have the slightest idea that they had ever existed. Blanche of King's Lynn (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

What you wrote here is plausible grounds for suggesting that the page be deleted, and I think that when you want to achieve that practical result that is what you should do. By the way, I looked up Donald Moffitt's reference (which I did not know about before), and I think there is a reason to think that the Anderson story influenced his own book. I added that to the page. This might or might not be an argument to consider the page noteworthy and retain it - I think this should be left to a discussion on the deletion page, if you decide to take that route. Blanche of King's Lynn (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Reason to think Anderson influenced Moffitt? Okay. What reason is that? DS (talk) 16:38, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Moffitt thought it was "ingenious" of Anderson to conceive of a spaceship "bobbing like a cork in Jupiter's upper atmosphere until it could be rescued" - and then Moffitt went on to himself write a story of a human colony which is permanently "bobbing like a cork in Jupiter's upper atmosphere". The reference to the Anderson story appears in the preface to the Moffitt book. Blanche of King's Lynn (talk) 17:29, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

What Moffitt wrote in his preface is essentially this: with what we know of conditions on the surface of Jupiter, it is virtually inconceivable to think of humans living there. Therefore - no colonization of Jupiter in SF which takes scientific facts seriously. But there is a loophole - no colonization of the Jovian surface, but one can conceive of a human colony forever flying in the upper Jovian atmosphere (if there is an economic incentive for such a colony, exploiting the gases etc.). Who already thought of humans surviving in such conditions? Anderson. If the characters of "Brake" could survive for several months in the Jovian atmosphere, then humans could also make a permanent colony there. Blanche of King's Lynn (talk) 17:39, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Did he a) cite "Brake" as an inspiration, or b) just mention it? DS (talk) 00:24, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

He did not write the explicit words "I have been inspired by Anderson". That he did not. What he did was to describe what Anderson had written about in 'Brake', and then going on to describe what he himself wrote in his own book - which just happens to be an obvious logical extension of Anderson's idea. Blanche of King's Lynn (talk) 15:29, 28 September 2017 (UTC)