Talk:Brently Heilbron

Untitled

Brently Heilbron has recently been featured several times in the media and worked with Woody Allen in Setember for the director's comedy debut on the LA Opera stage. More references have been cited as well to the validity of the sources.Carneycode (talk) 00:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Notability

Subject's seems to meet general notability guidelines. Please learn how to create reference tags. —  X  S  G  00:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As the subject is fitting for notability concerns, let us please end the discussion for deletion. The subject seems to be on the forefront of the new wave of comedians and is referred to as "leading" in a cited article. Legendary artists from Sir Paul McCartney to Woody Allen have recently tagged him in various capacities. These references are all cited. His comedic work was referenced by Gregory Peck in a 2004 biography. He has an discography as both artist and producer. Cleaning up an entry is one thing, but subject seems to fit terms of notability. 66.93.65.210 (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't find a single reference which supports notability; worked with Woody Allen or worked in a Woody Allen production (even as a lead, unless perhaps the production is separately notable) is not adequate. Being interviewed by a newspaper (as part of the review of said production) is not adequate. Being interviewed in a separate article might support it, but I don't see it. Please point to a specific claim of notability.

Sorry, that's not quite accurate. Being "on the forefront of the new wave of comedians" is a claim of notability, but it has no possible source. Please point to a sepcific claim of notability which has a credible source. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The Woody Allen show is a notable work, as it marked the director's live theater debut, let alone on the Opera stage. It received notable attention. To be the only comic actor cast amongst a slew of Opera stars (Baritone Sir Thomas Allen and others)is a notable achievement. Here is a direct link and picture of the actor in the piece. http://www.lasplash.com/publish/Los_Angeles_Performances_116/Il_Trittico_at_the_LA_Opera_Review_-_Triple-Terrific.php The show was a collaborative trilogy, Il Trittico, helmed by Woody Allen and Thomas Friedkin at the LA Opera. Again, I also cite a reviewed discography as a comic recording artist and other notable pop culture achievements. I appreciate the discussion, it keeps Wiki healthy.66.93.65.210 (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The Opera in question received worldwide press ranging from the BBC to most American journalistic institutions, due to Woody Allen's debut directing for the stage. I would also point out that the subject has been noted as more than just "an actor in a play." He has been noted for his satirical contributions to pop culture concerning R. Kelly's Trapped in the Closet in the New York Times and his recorded discography has been reviewed in various articles across the country. I see all sources are cited and a previous notability claim was accepted. Happy New Year to everyone!Aram.Karbashian (talk) 17:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

There's a note there was a previously notability claim, not that the claim was justified. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. But the subject seems to meet your standards in being directly involved with "seperatly notable" productions. First, the one-and-only (to my knowledge) secret-but-heavily documented record record store performance of the legendary Beatle, in which subject was tapped as a comic to open. Second, the Opera directorial debut of film director Woody Allen tapped the subject as the only comic actor to play the only non-operatic part. Third, the New York Times article concerning R. Kelly's "Trapped in the Closet." This is not just a review of the subject's work but rather the NYT sought the subject's commentary as a voice of note on the work. Carneycode (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Why am I still the only person who has voted in this article's AfD? —  X  S  G  21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Didn't you earlier say it met the notability guidelines. The references have since been properly cited.Carneycode (talk) 23:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I said that he seems to meet notability, and indicated that the article's references need cleaning up. And even if I did say that he was notable, I'm just another editor. Since whoever put this article together doesn't know how to properly create references, they're a mess and it's very difficult for anyone to discern that the subject is truly notable. Visit WP:REF. Learn how references are created. Fix this article up. Once you do, Heilbron's notability will be much easier to determine. —  X  S  G  02:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

They've been properly cited (as far as I can tell), but at least [3] and [4] do not support the statements. Furthermore, his (audio) publisher was founded by himself, not leading to any notability as I see it. It's possible that there's some notability there, but odds are against it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see [5], [6], and [7] supporting notability, either. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

[5] [6] and [7] are all references to his notability in satire. [6] specifically is not any particular review but seeking his commentary on the subject. Also, I do see subject's association with the notable performances mentioned above are worthy of inclusion.Carneycode (talk) 00:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I would also note that he seems to be an host-in-residence at Amoeba Music which is referred to as a "Hollywood Landmark". I first heard about him through the article in the New York Times. From what I can tell, he's not a NY artist at all. Who works with Paul McCartney and Woody Allen in LA of all places?  :) let him in!Aram.Karbashian (talk) 00:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No, [5], [6], and [7] are references to his claims of notability in satire. (If the claims are notable, does that make him notable. (If the claims that the claims are notable are notable ....)) Being host-in-residence at Amoeba Music detracts from his notability under [4]. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's be done with this. I've added a ref from the Austin Chronicle critiquing one of Heilbron's performances. I've clarified a reference in which the L.A. Times drew attention to Heilbron's upcoming performance. Both of these articles were about Heilbron and written by reliable second-party sources. At this point, Heilbron's notability, according to WP:NOTABLE, is irrefutable. Go vote Keep in the AfD and be proud that your approach to Heilbron's article has helped the article improve. —  X  S  G  02:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Let's be done with this. But good work on improving this article to all! I think notability has been confirmed by "reliable sources". Carneycode (talk) 17:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC) Added a Television credit for Heilbron.Carneycode (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see notability, especially with the reference that failed verification in the lead, and questions of whether alternative weeklys can serve as indications of notability. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

IMDB fails to confirm the TV credit. TV.com fails to cofirm the TV credit. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

source was taken from the NY Times. Carneycode (talk) 22:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Source was taken from the NY Times web site. Whether it's backed by the Times is unclear. It doesn't seem credible that neither IMDB nor TV.com would have the information, if it were correct. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a citation from the show's site giving the subject credit (along with his collaborator Liz Feldman!) You have made this page much stronger, Mr. Rubin!Aram.Karbashian (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I was hoping that, when we're done, the article will either be deleted or adequately sourced. On the other hand, I don't think hollywood.com is the show's web site, and a credit as Husband#1 is not necessarily a notable role. (It might be, but there's really no way to tell.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I give up

I've put enough effort into trying to cite this article. I try to find information about Brently Heilbron's relationship with Pamela Ribon and find her saying that he won a Tony Award for his "musical sendup of Rupert Holmes". Which would be a strong claim to notability, so I search for this and find it to be a complete fabrication. The same thing has happened for at least three articles I've read. What a waste of time. I don't know the guy, I don't care about the guy, and ... I'm done. Someone else can take up the slack trying to find and vet the references. Or not. —  X  S  G  02:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there was ever a reference to him winning a Tony award for Pam Ribon's Anne Heche Monologues as but I believe his songs were cited. But he is a satirist of note and seemingly in demand. Even though you don't "care about the guy" I'm glad you made the subject's page much stronger. I will monitor this article in the future. Aram.Karbashian (talk) 19:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Ahem. I still don't see a source for notability. But, could you clean up the infobox you inserted? The same lines shouldn't be in medium and genre, and I don't see a source for those works being notable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, could you quote the references here, before adding them to the main page. I'm willing to fix citation tags, as well as questioning the notability and reliabiity of the sources, but correct citation tags could be helpful in determining the credibility and relevance of the references. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have found another article from the Los Angeles Citybeat referring to Heilbron as a "Comedy Central Stage veteran" and refers to the, ahem, "hooray for Gregory Peck's Ass!" and the "Anne Heche Monolgues". Another article from a different paper said "leave it to Brently to hold a candle up to a celebrity.". My question is: how do I get the image to appear in the infobox? I found an image from a google search verifying the Woody Allen opera. uploaded it to wikicommons and cited the author but it is somehow not appearing. Thanks!Aram.Karbashian (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I don't know about the image. What's your wikicommons account name? I'll try to check.

As for the other references, as I said above, please insert them here. You're removing tags questioning whether information in the article is properly sourced, and it appears to be accidental. One of the sources you added was on Brently's (publishing) web site, which is completely unusable. The question of whether a calendar entry (such as from the Austin Chronicle or LA City Beat) can be used to support any details of the performance is also questionable; it may be that the text of the calendar entry came from Brently or from the facility's publicist, without any checking by the newsletter. I know that was common practice on many publications in the 70s, but I don't know whether it's changed. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

From someone who knows many people in that field, that is no longer the case. For Heilbron's case, publications like the Village Voice, Time Out New York, NY Times, LA Weekly, LA Times, LA Citybeat, Austin Chronicle, etc. all have members on staff who choose artists to promote based on their work. I believe that while publicists still send in press releases, that is no garauntee of inclusion. I don't think there is any way someone can accrue that many citations in publications, or opinions solicited from the NY Times, and still possess no merit whatsoever.76.175.164.53 (talk) 23:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

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