Talk:Brian Kelly (American soccer)

Requested move 17 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Four people support some kind of move, with only one against, and of the four, three support the proposed title. Looks like enough of a consensus to me. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Close changed to Move to Brian Kelly (American soccer) per discussion below. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

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Brian Kelly (soccer) → Brian Kelly (U.S. soccer player) – there's a Brian Kelly (footballer), so WP:PRECISE, there is insufficient disambiguation to identify the topic. This disambiguation would require indepth knowledge of Wikipedia's whimsical use of English language terminology, thus is not a real world distinction. The current title should point to the disambiguaiton page Brian Kelly (disambiguation) -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support I am the nominator -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support ambiguous disambiguation In ictu oculi (talk) 10:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
• Move to Brian Kelly (American soccer) - standard dab for American/Canadian soccer players. – Michael (talk) 22:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
  • While "gridiron football", "American football" and "Canadian football" make sense for their sports, since these are separate sports (rugby-like gridiron football), there's no sport called "American soccer" -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:25, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
    • This does, however, appear to be the standard disambiguator when the simple "soccer" is insufficient. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
      • But it's not insufficient, we do not have Brian Kelly (English soccer) and nor should we. GiantSnowman 13:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. – Michael (talk) 07:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - there is no other 'soccer' player, disambiguation by nationality is not required. GiantSnowman 18:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Brian Kelly (footballer) is a soccer player. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 23:34, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
    • No, he is a 'footballer' (look at the article titles) - having one at 'footballer' and one at 'soccer' is fine, there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of articles like that and it has worked problem free for years. You are trying to find an issue where there isn;t one. GiantSnowman 18:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
      • No, he is a soccer player, or association footballer, not merely a footballer. He isn't a rugby footballer, for instance. Wikipedia is to be used by English-speakers of all dialects, so disambiguators should be distinguishable by the topic of the article, as such, "soccer player" and "association footballer" are equivalent and indistinguishable. "footballer" is much worse, being indistinguishable from rugby/league/sevens, international/gaelic/Aussie, and soccer. As there are multiple association football players with articles called Brian Kelly, there needs to be sufficient disambiguation, synonyms are ambiguous with each other. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 04:37, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
        • But we wouldn't have an article at Brian Kelly (rugby footballer) - these 'synonyms' are sufficiently different, as I have already stated, this is how it has worked for years with no problems - you obviously don't know what you are talking about. GiantSnowman 11:12, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
          • The use of synonyms as disambiguators is bad because it is not about the readership, it is only about the dialect of the subject of the article. The reader should not be required to go through understanding all dialects to distinguish between two synonyms. Instead additional adjectives should be attached to distinguish instead of just dialectal synonyms. The synonyms serve as the local ties to the subject, the additional adjectives serve as disambiguation for the readership. Some countries use both "footballer" and "soccer", so we should not be using synonyms for disambiguation, because it does not serve the readership. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 23:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom. DrKiernan (talk) 12:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• See also similar move requests at Talk:Brian Kelly (Canadian football) ; Talk:Brian Kelly (footballer) -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion on changing my close

Hello all. I have had strong representations on my talk page, User talk:Amakuru#Brian Kelly (U.S. soccer player) suggesting that I change the target of my move closure above to Brian Kelly (American soccer), rather than the current Brian Kelly (U.S. soccer player). This does appear to be the commonly used disambiguator for a number of other soccer players in a similar situation. I'm prepared to change my closure and do this move to Brian Kelly (American soccer), but I would like to get the opinions of @70.51.200.101:, @In ictu oculi:, and @DrKiernan:, who were initially in favour of the current page. Please let me know if you'd object to the alternative disambiguator, and if so, what is your reasoning for making it not standard with the other pages in this position? Many thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 21:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Fine by me. DrKiernan (talk) 22:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

While I opposed the original move, I would lend support to this. If the page has to be moved, it should at least be to standard naming convention for soccer players. GiantSnowman 09:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, I think we have enough consensus. I've changed my close accordingly. Thanks all for the compromise.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)