Talk:Brian O'Neill (High-King of Ireland)

High King of Ireland

Like Edward Bruce later, he was not in any real sense High King of Ireland. It was a self-proclaimed revival of a title which had effectively ended at the Treaty of Windsor 1175 following the Norman invasion of Ireland, and he never held the island. --81.129.142.136 (talk) 08:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Same Brian O'Neill as was beaten by Clan Connell few years before trying to subjugate Tyrconnell? King, Can't even claim King of Ulster.

Technically, he did have the support of the 2 other most powerful kings in Ireland, so if you were another king you would be pretty foolish to challenge him. The main reason he lost the Battle of Druim Dearg was because he lost the support of Munster when the previous king died. Furthermore, to the point of him failing to defeat Tyrconnel, the O'Donnels knew they were surrounded by enemies at this point and had no choice but to surrender. Brian severely weakend the Norman's in Ireland, and this paved the way for more attacks, such as Fineen McCarthy at the Battle of Callan, and eventually the sort of knockout blow in driving the English to the Pale, Edward Bruce. Iamdmonah (talk) 12:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Just to point out he never claimed to be king of Ulster and no member of the Northern Ui Neill ever did until Aedh Remar in the early 14th century. Ailech and Ulaid were two separate over-kingdoms who were the greatest of rivals for centuries until the Normans defeated Ulaid and paving the way for the Northern Ui Neill to make headroads into it in the years after the Bruce invasion. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The Ulaid were already fairly weak by the time the Norman's came around- they had been defeated by the Northern Uí Néill in 1003, and were then forced to submit to Brian Boru shortly afterwards- which was followed by repeated raids by the Northern Uí Néill for several years- followed by Attacks by Magnus Barelegs, King of Norway (although they managed to ambush and kill him). The Normans didnt really defeat them- they were already in a bit of a shambles by the time they came around. Iamdmonah (talk) 15:32, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Edit issues

Just a quick highlight of some of the main problems with your recent edits Iamdmonah.

• You reverted edits made based on the Wikipedia policy of Use English . A policy that despite being made aware of and acknowledging you are ignoring.
• There is no need to provide the Irish for Rory O'Connor after his name or anyone else who already has an article where it is mentioned. The same for places. His daughter Nuala doesn't have an article so I added the Irish form of her surname in brackets after her name. I didn't need to and maybe we should remove it altogether?
• Your edits contain poor grammar and spelling as well as highly redundant info that you claim sets the scene but just adds in a lot of nonsense not directly related to the topic of this article.
• Re-adding information backed with up with poor non-academic sources such as [1], which presents contested theories as facts such as the location of the battle of Caimerge.
• Your edits are also showing bias including your selective reverts such as between him and his second-cousin Niall and Hugh Boy's son Brian. What are your reasons for removing this? Its directly related to Brian as we are briefly discussing his son, kin and the successors of the kingship that he held? Is it because his O'Neill rivals were aided by the Normans? Also why remove possibly with the aid of Hugh de Lacy, 1st Earl of Ulster,? This is highly relevant to Brian and as stated in my edit summary I will add the page number of the source later. Is it because you don't like the fact Brian who died fighting the Earldom of Ulster was possibly installed by its Norman earl?
• Your reverts are careless. Your eagerness to simply revert stuff even reverted the full stop I put at the end of the sentence of the "In poetry" section. Are we trying to enforce poor grammar?
• The removal of accurately academically sourced material.
• Your edits "arguably the greatest High King of Ireland to ever live" is highly subjective and peacock
• Your edits and poorly done part reverts are also questionably WP:POINTY.

Mabuska ^(talk) 16:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

These claims are mostly nonsense from my point of view, thanks for the lecture though. And my apologies for accidentally removing your full stop and other mistakes I supposedly made. I am the only person who has made any major expansion to this page in quite a while so I would appreciate it I could be supported by my fellow editors in trying to expand this page. Iamdmonah (talk) 18:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually they aren't mostly nonsense. Adding lots of needless and irrelevant information to expand an article is hardly making it better. An article with less info that is reliably sourced with relevant information is worth more than a long waffle of irrelevant info.

If you followed guidelines and stopped removing reliable academically sourced info that you don't agree with then maybe you could get more support. But when your edits have major flaws they will be pointed out and fixed/rectified. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

If you really want to improve the article then add in the page numbers you use from Foster for the information you cite to it. That'd allow for proper scrutiny and attribution to verify the information you add. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I struck my last comment as it turns out the information you added seems to almost all come from that unreliable webpage source. Having said if you use a book source please add page numbers, it greatly helps. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Explain something to me. You have consistently tagged me for 'peacocking' and using my opinions in sources, but in the segment 'Battle of Down and Death', you said the following at the end:

"Brian's head was cut off and sent to Henry III of England, showing how dangerous his coalition was thought to be."

I don't really understand how this is not opinion based, but edits are? I know there probably is some explanation in the wikipedia guidelines but in only learning here so would you mind explaining? Iamdmonah (talk) 17:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

You are guilty of WP:PEACOCK as you are adding in things into additions that your "sources" don't state. The statement you quote I added quite specifically has a citation at the end of it which backs what is said. The difference in what is WP:PEACOCK and not is whether it is actually in an academic reliable source or not. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources

I'm struggling to find many sources. I have found some websites about his biography but none cite where they got their own information from. I have searched through several books about the Norman's in Ireland, History of Ulster etc. and thus far cannot find anything about this man. If someone finds some sources could they please put them on the talk pages? Iamdmonah (talk) 18:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I added stuff which you removed but is now back in the article. There is not much info about him. I have a small bit more to add in later but it's not much. Excluding Down and ending the McLaughlin's claims to Tyrone and Ailech, what else is there to him? Mabuska ^(talk) 19:35, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

There you go more stuff added, cited, and restructured even with that bad webpage source which needs replacing. Turns out there was more to him. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:11, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Would it be possible for you to leave a URL link for your sources? I appreciate you work but nobody else Is able to access the books you have cited. Iamdmonah (talk) 13:49, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

That is not my problem. Not all sources have online versions for people to look at for free. How would the authors make a living? Use Google books to glimpse what you can from any previews. Failing that buy the book or go to a library and request them get a copy. I have an extensive collection as my interest in the topic area is very deep.

Also please find a reliable source for that terrible link you are using. Having given it a full look and it is unreliable and full of bias and commentary that falls way short of Wikipedia standards. Problems not helped by you adding more commentary and WP:OR. Mabuska ^(talk) 09:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Found another academic source, which gave a lot of new details about O'Neill. Don't think there is much else to add on him. He appears to have been a man of a equal number of victories and defeats/rebuttals. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I meant atleast give a URL to the Google books preview. Otherwise it is something hard to find the books. Obviously, your belief that Brian was a "man of few victories and many defeats/rebuttals" is you opinion, which is in contrast to mine, but that is fine. Anyway, could you please give a URL link to the Google books preview at least. There isnt much information on him i understand. Either way, successfully toppling the Lord Chief Justice from power is some feat. And killed by those few Irishmen who fight against freedom- pretty much the story of Irish history if you ask me.

Iamdmonah (talk) 15:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Be WP:BOLD and look it up yourself. I have done my part with the proper citation of material.

Going by what I have added there is actually quite a good bit of information on him compared to the majority of medieval Irish figures, especially Gaelic ones. And yes it is my opinion that he was as successful as he was disastrous but at least the sources quantify it as he did basically have as many setbacks as victories. That is in contrast to your opinion which has no basis on any source or historical fact. You image him to be some great Irish hero but the evidence is quite contrary. That often happens people who actually delve into medieval Irish history. They find their views are greatly distorted or mislaid and don't match fact.

Also who said he toppled the Justiciar? According to who? You? Have a look at FitzGerald's article. What does it state? In 1245, Maurice was dismissed from his post as Justiciar as a result of tardiness in sending the King assistance in the latter's military campaigns in Wales. His successor was John FitzGeoffrey. Sorry to burst your bubble but your fiction doesn't stand up to facts. Please stop coming up with these factless remarks and opinions as you're constantly being shown to be wrong. And as The Banner pointed out you need this to be an editor here. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

killed by those few Irishmen who fight against freedom- pretty much the story of Irish history if you ask me. - this is were your bias, which you deny, is on full display and shows you don't have the competence to edit in the topic area that you are editing in. Your viewpoint is severely blurred by the myth of any Irish man fighting the Normans/English is a freedom fighter and anyone to the contrary is a traitor. You fail to grasp the political realities of that time, which weren't the same as those of the past century or two. Back then it was all about personal power, no matter if you were Irish or Norman. Getting rid of a more powerful domineering enemy by whatever means only helps install yourself as the most powerful and domineering. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

This what you dont undertand– they are my political views. But I did NOT ONCE reflect them on my edits in the actual article and you gave yet to provide evidence to the contrary. My image of the "Irish freedom fighter" is countered by your views that British people are the best in the world. Trust me, I know all about the political landscape at the time.

There was no sense of national identity at the time in Ireland. This was something Edward Bruce tried to stir up–and failed. In general, Irish soldiers remained loyal to their Kingdom– but as there were no standing armies, this wasnt always the case. Many soldiers– particularly Gallowglasses- fought for the highest bidder, regardless of their political views. MY VIEW is Brian O'Neill tried to style himself as some sort of national leader against the English– which he obviously failed at. But the Irish revolts of the mid 1200s are well documented– the shrinking of the lordship is evidence of this. You have to note that at this time, the difference between the Gaels and the Normans is very obvious– completely different cultures. This was different in the late 1300s to early 1500s, where all the Normans were basically Irish– completely the same culture (apart from the Pale obviously) So a Hiberno–Norman lord fighting against and Irish lord in 1400 was really no different from two Irish kings fighting. Brian O'Neill was different in that he united Gaels against Norman's in some sense. His alliance was entirely Irish, no Norman lords involved. I think you are the one who is failing to grasp the political realities of the time.

But you do realise their is a difference between a talk page and an actual article right? A talk page is a place where editors can share their thoughts, views and opinions, which shouldnt reflect on their edits on the actually article. And yet every example of my "bias" you have provided is from the talk page– not the actual article. Therefore, your claims that I'm being biased in my edits is are lies and it really shows your blatant ignorance. All you have "proven" is that I have strong opinions about this subject– you have not proven that these opinions reflected on my edits on the article.

So please, calm down and actually try and make sense with your arguments. Iamdmonah (talk) 22:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm taking my response to your talk page as this really is not the place for it. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:45, 16 June 2020 (UTC)