Talk:Brigham Young University–Idaho/Archive 1

Discussion

I edited a lot of the vandalism that occurred on this page. People made various smart alec comments related to their discontent with how the university is run, as well as the student body, and several stereotypes. I would recommend at least a temporary semi-protection on this page. Aedtl 09:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The latest enrollment for Fall 2006 was over 13,000 students198.60.98.100 18:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the emphasis from "not affiliated" because it seemed to push too much on an issue that most people will be completely unfamiliar with. In fact I think that whole sentence should be reworded to say what BYU-I is, not what it is not. If I don't get any flack on that issue, I'll do so. Salzgitter 14:59, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I expanded the paragraph on the Honor Code and made it into a separate section. It would be nice if someone started a section on the school's "Rethinking Education" philosophy (of which the three-track system is part). --Kingofthesystem 07:48, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I was both pleased and disappointed coming back to this page a few months later. Pleased, because so much information and pictures had been added. Disappointed, because these additions had completely replaced the old article. Normally, I would not care (as improving articles is what Wikipedia is about), but the new article read like an advertisement (it was posted by BYU-Idaho Public Relations), avoided probing deeply into the Honor/Dress Codes, etc. Mostly, I cut and pasted parts from the old version (Feb 22 2006) that would balance the new one (with some editing to make these changes flow).--Kingofthesystem 02:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

BYU-I is a college not an University as per Websters definition of university. "an institution of higher learning providing facilities for teaching and research and authorized to grant academic degrees; specifically : one made up of an undergraduate division which confers bachelor's degrees and a graduate division which comprises a graduate school and professional schools each of which may confer master's degrees and doctorates" It retains University in its name because of its association with BYU-Provo. TimothyDOConnor 8:30, March 5, 2007

I agree it doesn't fit Webster's definition, but the actual definition of what consitutes a "university" and what is a "college" is actually not legally defined in the United States (see College). Boston College is a prime example as it is really a full-fledged university, but chose to keep the "College" part of its name rather than add "University" and either change the name further (to differentiate from Boston University) or just be confused with BU. Schools with "college" are also typically liberal arts colleges, which BYU-Idaho really doesn't fit either. It also depends on each state too what can be classified a "college" or "university." But I agree the association with BYU is really the biggest reason it has "university" status. It gave BYU-Idaho almost instant accreditation. --JonRidinger 03:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Brigham Young University-Idaho medallion logo.png

Image:Brigham Young University-Idaho medallion logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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Quality

Is it me or is this article of very poor quality? It reads like a brochure straight from the university rather than an encyclopedic article. I almost feel like the whole thing needs to be re-written! Any ideas where to start? --JonRidinger 03:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not you. BYU's article was pretty bad to before I started fixing it up, but not this bad. Wrad (talk) 04:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd start with the history section and work my way down. Wrad (talk) 04:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Good ideas...will see what I can add and improve. --JonRidinger (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed Text

I removed the following text, as it has had a citation tag since Nov. 2007:

Faculty

BYU–Idaho employs approximately 470 faculty members. Instructors are engaged in a wide range of scholarly activities, but the faculty’s primary focus is on the teaching and development of students. The school maintains a low student to faculty ratio, and there is no faculty rank.

Please do not put the text back on the page without pertinent references. Thank you. --Eustress (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

BYU-I Userbox

Just wanted to let everyone know that I created a userbox for BYU-I students and alumni. Simply type {{User BYU-Idaho}} on your userpage and enjoy! --Eustress (talk) 23:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Ricks College

I have been thinking that perhaps it might be better to spin off a separate Ricks College article. BYU-Idaho is obviously a continuation of Ricks, but before and after the transition are two very different times, not only in regards to athletics, but activities, academics, and the campus itself. I've noticed as I've edited this page there are frequent "before the transition" or "after the transition"...Thoughts on this? Just something to think about. Obviously we would keep the history together, but we could take out the "before and after" stuff reflecting the current school on the BYU-Idaho article and the Ricks College "way it was" on a separate page. Or perhaps a better way to integrate the two here?? --JonRidinger (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You could have some kind of Main article link for the History section (using the {{main}} template with Brigham Young University-Idaho history) that goes more in depth regarding Ricks, but that's as drastic a move as I would suggest, and it's something you could compile now and then create later and possibly get into DYK. I like how concise the history section in this article is right now. --Eustress (talk) 04:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Intro

There's been some back-and-forth editing on the intro, so I'm hoping we can discuss it a little if there are future edits. I've done the following:

• Bolded appropriate titles in the Intro (per WP:LEAD) to include its current name and acronyms, along with the most notable prior name (Ricks College)—bolding all the prior names is too much
• Put the acronyms in parentheses per WP:LEAD
• Made the Intro a bit more concise, moving text into two paragraphs; this section currently doesn't merit three paragraphs, as a paragraph should usually embody at least three sentences

Please discuss any objections to these bullets or significant changes regarding the lead here first. Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 04:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The paragraphs also need to make logical sense. This is why I have placed the statement about the percentage of students who are LDS with relevant material. It is a noteworthy fact, but hardly one that should be put even before the mentioning of the history of the school and CES and BYU and how BYU-Idaho fits into that.

I don't have a problem with three paragraphs, but I don't think it's that big of a deal either. --JonRidinger (talk) 06:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As you can see I rewrote some stuff because there were some missing facts (like what did BYU-Idaho transition from?) and I do think BYU-Hawaii and the LDS Business College need to be mentioned as sister schools if BYU is mentioned since it shows the relationship between the four and how BYU-Idaho fits in. I reworded some of the history section in the opening so that it flowed better and so I could combine what had been the first two paragraphs into one. Once again I moved the fact about 99.7% of the students being Mormon to the end, not because it is the least significant fact, but because it lends support to the statement that precedes it in the current setup: "...almost all of whom are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." --JonRidinger (talk) 06:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as the mentioning of the other CES schools, yes one can go to the CES article, but CES includes more than just the 3 BYU's and LDSBC, so showing how it is part of a particular system (in this case a system within a system) would include mentioning at least BYU and BYU-Hawaii since they share a common name and the fact that the BYU name is well-known to most people (but most don't realize there are two other schools with the BYU name). Next, BYU-Idaho's relation to BYU is the same as its relationship to BYU-Hawaii and LDSBC (sister schools) which is why I think they should be mentioned and the relation clarified: BYU-Idaho has three sister schools. Too many people assume that BYU-Idaho is a dependent branch campus of BYU (like BYU-Idaho students will eventually have to transfer to BYU to finish their coursework). Even though I did support using the term flagship to refer to BYU, since it isn't used, the wording certainly makes it appear that way as the paragraph mentions BYU-Idaho's relationship to BYU and then mentions the other two's relation to BYU not BYU-Idaho. Believe me, if there were more sister schools besides the other three I wouldn't favor listing all of them.--JonRidinger (talk) 17:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I like your final rendition with the semicolons. Nice work! --Eustress (talk) 20:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Non-free images

The following images on this page were illegally posted by User:BYUIdahoPublicRelations: Newsporinew.jpg, Snowbuildingnew.jpg, Romneybldgnew.JPG, Byuieastentrancenew.jpg, and Manwaringnew.jpg. Should we remove them all and seek free pics, make them all fair-use, or try to get legitimate permission (Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission)? --Eustress (talk) 12:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Pictures indefinitely removed

• File:Newsporinew.jpg
• File:Snowbuildingnew.jpg
• File:Romneybldgnew.JPG
• File:Byuieastentrancenew.jpg
• File:Manwaringnew.jpg

• I was bold and removed the pictures until there copyright statuses can be fixed. --Eustress (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Get free images. There has to be someone here who is currently in or is going to be in Rexburg that can take pictures of things like the Spori building or the Snow building. No need to ask for copyright permission on pictures that can easily be replaced with higher resolution pictures. The pictures in question should be tagged and deleted in my opinion. --JonRidinger (talk) 14:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Rankings?

Can anyone find anything about rankings for the school? --Eustress (talk) 13:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

According to US News, "This school refused to fill out the U.S. News survey; limited data appear." BYU-Idaho appears as a "Baccalaureate Colleges (West), third tier". (see http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_1625_brief.php) --TrustTruth (talk) 15:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Marion G. Romney

I clarified the small statement on Marion G. Romney in the alumni section. The source from the New York Times obituary states he graduated from "Ricks Normal College" and the BYU-Idaho source simply says "Ricks Alumnus" but as far as I could find, it was still functioning as a high school, not a full-fledged institution of higher learning, so it's not fully accurate to say he's alumni of "BYU-Idaho" since it implies he got some sort of degree (in fact he did most of his college work at the University of Utah with some at BYU). There is some discrepency as to whether the name change from Ricks Academy to Ricks Normal College happened in 1917 or 1918 based on the info on the pages for Marion G. Romney and George S. Romney compared to the history from BYU-Idaho. Even if the name change did occur in 1917, that only meant it had an additional year of teacher training (hence "normal school") and the high school portion was still functioning. The name change in 1923 to Ricks College marked the beginning of the era where the school was an actual institution of higher learning. If anyone has additional insights or sources (outside the BYU-Idaho history on their website), please add them for further clarification. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Student Activities

I am proposing we bring the organizational and historical overview of the Student Activities article in and create a section on the Activities Program or integrate it into the Culture section. Thoughts? --Camrow (talk) 22:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

No, I think what's on the page currently is sufficient. (Thanks for consulting with others, though...something few rookie editors do.) What does need attention, though, is that the current information, as it is, needs to be supported by reliable sources. Furthermore, the main article for Student Activities has some serious issues regarding reliable sources, possible conflicts of interest, and original research. I'm grateful for the contribution, but we have to follow the rules (see WP:POLICY). Best regards --Eustress (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Refs

It looks like about 2/3 of the refs in this article are from BYU-I, which would not pass GAN. Any help in eradicating this issue and updating refs to WP:Cite web format would be appreciated. --Eustress (talk) 21:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

While about half the references are from BYU-I, the majority comes from the independent student paper Scroll, which probably is the most reliable source for information about the school.Gag01001 (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)Gag01001

The Scroll is run by BYU-I (see site), so more independent sources are needed to qualify as reliable. --Eustress (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Text with no citation

I removed the following, as it has been tagged as needing a supporting citation since Nov. 2007: "Approximately 20% of the student body is married, and about 40 percent have been full-time missionaries for the LDS Church." —Eustress ^talk 04:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Sort of new to this but figured I would give it a gander looking around for statistics this might be a reasonable citation source it comes from BYU-Idaho's statistics page: http://www2.byui.edu/IR/stats/index.htm just want to be careful before I go adding or modifying anything as I am new to wikipediatalk 04:33, 5 Nov 2012 (UT

It may be worth checking the BYU-Idaho webpage as they often cite statistics. If that site doesn't have any stats, you could also look to the US News rankings which also carries stats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmrwikiprof (talk • contribs) 00:28, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

"R" hillside letter

Are there any photos available for the the "R" hillside letter for the former name of this school? See also List of Hillside Letters in Idaho for more details. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:34, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

University seal

ChristensenMJ (talk · contribs) is correct in restoring File:BYU-Idaho Medallion Logo.svg to the infobox as it specifies on its page that it is not the university seal, but a "medallion logo". BYU, BYU-Hawaii, and LDS Business College have the same setup in regards to logos and seals. All of the schools have an academic seal, which is rarely used outside formal academic documents like diplomas and official correspondence. The formal BYU seal can be seen here and the BYU-Idaho seal looks similar. Even so, usage in this article (if we had the seal file to use) would fall under fair use, but because the seal has so little use outside very formal documents, the medallion logo functions more like the seals of other schools in that it's very visible on campus buildings and materials, just as the other text logo is. Although I have not been in the BYU-Idaho campus since 2007, during my time there, I never saw the official seal displayed on buildings, materials, or signs; only the medallion logo. Further, the medallion logos have no copyrightable features since they all contain only text. The other logo, File:BYUI logo blue.pdf, can also be placed in the infobox at the bottom (or the full-text version that appears on many of the campus gateway signs), though the file needs to be cropped as it has an excessive amount of white space around it. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:07, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I can edit the other image to make it more presentable. My boss asked me to get the image on the Wikipedia page changed as it is the University Seal, he is the Director of Branding and Marketing at Brigham Young University - Idaho. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jossharlequin (talk • contribs) 16:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I notified Jossharlequin about WP:COI on his talk page. Bahooka (talk) 16:21, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Jossharlequin (talk · contribs), whether the current medallion logo is considered the official seal or not (recent diplomas use the beehive seal with "The Glory of God is Intelligence" motto), its use on Wikipedia is clearly under fair use, on top of the reality that the medallion logo cannot be copyrighted since it only contains text. Bear in mind that while this article is about BYU-Idaho, it is not owned or controlled by BYU-Idaho, so branding and style guides do not apply here beyond verifying factual items like the specific shades used for the school colors or official logos. The square "BYU-Idaho" logo or the full-text logo ("Brigham Young University-Idaho" seen on campus signs) can also be included in the infobox at the bottom. The Brigham Young University infobox uses the athletic "Y" logo at the bottom, but most university articles have the seal at the top and their text logo at the bottom (see Ohio State University for an example) with the athletic logo (BYU-Idaho has a "varsity" logo too, or at least used to) in the athletics section. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Bahooka Thank you for explaining the conflict of interest to me. All I was told to do was change the logo. I have no plans to change the article itself, but I can see how things could escalate to the such happening. (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Jossharlequin (talk · contribs), best place to look is WP:UNI/AG, which are the article guidelines for articles on universities. One thing it has is: "All institution articles should utilize {{Infobox University}} to provide the basic details about the institution, preferably with a lead image of the institution's official seal or coat of arms and an image at the bottom of the institution's wordmark..." --JonRidinger (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Colors

There seems to be a little back-and-forth with the school colors, though that's understandable given the sources. The PDF file Charlesaaronthompson (talk · contribs) cites appears to be a bit older based on the web link provided by ChristensenMJ (talk · contribs), which states: "IN the past the Pantone color swatch used for BYUI Blue was PMS 660. Due to subtle shifts from various printing mediums, the pantone color swatch has been changed to PMS 300. This swatch matches what the BYUI Blue has become." The PDF style guide uses previous PMS 660 as the shade of blue. The confusion is that blue is the primary branding color but gray is used in the logo, seen here, where it says "The official color scheme for the logo is BYUI blue on white with a thin gray horizontal line dividing BYU and Idaho." Adding to the confusion is this link, which says "Blue and white are the official school colors", but also says the shade of blue is PMS 660 (meaning it hasn't been updated yet) and also gives the PMS numbers for accent gray. I think it would be safe to use the latest shade of blue (hex #0071B1  ) and white since we have an actual source stating the school colors are blue and white as opposed to the branding emphasis is blue. Thoughts? --JonRidinger (talk) 13:31, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

It's probably natural to assume I agree with the updated edits made by JonRidinger, while recognizing there can be some confusion, as noted. When I originally reverted the colors from the good faith edits made, I toyed with whether to include white or not, so I am glad it now shows. I am comfortable with how it's currently reflected. ChristensenMJ (talk) 15:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I also agree that BYU–Idaho's colors are VERY confusing. Along with the PDF source I provided (and the other sources currently used in the infobox of the main article), there's this source from BYU's Identity website for BYU–Idaho, which states the colors as PMS 660 (HTML code #4367C5  ) for Blue & PMS Warm Gray 7 (HTML code #A49B92  ) for Gray. I think maybe the colors should be left alone until WP:CONSENSUS is reached. I don't want to be blocked again for edit-warring, given my history with that. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 18:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, like I said in the edit summary and above, since we have a primary source that identifies the colors as blue and white, that's probably the best place to leave it for now. So many conflicting sources on top of the difference between approved branding colors and actual school colors. I'm not sure how up-to-date the BYU source is, though, since BYU also has conflicting sources about the use of tan (seems to be a pretty recent change). Anecdotally, when I was a student at BYU-Idaho, the use of the official school colors was inconsistent at best. Heck, I don't think I even knew what they officially were when I was there. My guess is that's mainly from the school not having intercollegiate athletics anymore, so no uniforms to make the school colors obvious. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd just echo the sentiment that any info on the BYU website for either BYU-Hawaii or BYU-Idaho shouldn't be used or considered. This is probably somebody's good faith effort to be helpful at some point in providing info on the other institutions, but BYU has no stewardship for the others and is not likely to keep these current, if they even remember it's on their website. ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:26, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Date

Yeah, it's probably minutiae, but MOS:SEASONS seems to go against using "Fall 2015" or "Fall 2015 Semester" for the ambiguity of the seasons, but also because any enrollment count is going to be a snapshot at a given time. Since we can date the number to a specific month, that's usually the safe bet. If it was an undated source, like a general web page where there isn't a specific date attached to the number other than the semester name, then yeah, Fall Semester 2015 would be the next best thing. I know with a lot of secondary school articles the enrollment numbers just show for, say, the "2015-16 school year" (since they come from an undated report issued at the end of the school year), so the infobox will just have "(2015-16)". --JonRidinger (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Great thoughts. Thank you. Here's a couple thoughts. First, I actually don't think the seasons guidelines actually applies in this particular case. The way I listed it is the actual name of the time period the enrollment is being reported on. It's not trying to describe something like the "winter 1995," as shown in the MOS guideline. It really function more as a proper name in this instance. The second would be that October just happens to be when they got around to writing the article. It can't really be tied to when the enrollment data snapshot occurred. It's quite likely the snapshot was in September and this is when the article followed. I think "Fall Semester 2015" would work just fine, since that's the time frame the reporting is being done for. ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:24, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

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OTRS

@ChristensenMJ: Per OTRS ticket, the medallion is "no longer the correct logo". IGiven the nature of OTRS, I can not disclose who emailed me, or why, but I'd ask that you follow Wikipedia:Volunteer_Response_Team#Disagreeing_with_a_team-related_edit since it was a ticket-related edit, and reinstate the new logo, and then icuss here on the talk page the merits of the medalion vs. logo. (t) Josve05a (c) 20:06, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Josve05a. As per the information captured in the above section you referred me to, I have sent you an e-mail to see if there is additional information that can be shared in a not so public sphere. Without knowing the substance of the ticket, which I get, an important thing to note is that there are multiple official logos at most universities, including BYU-Idaho. It is also hard to know, given ticket confidentiality, whether the initiating individual has any more formal/official basis for wanting a change than even simply a personal preference. Presumably, something as simple as a logo could be changed by any good faith editor, without use of a different process. Additionally, the edit brought about by the ticket represents AN approved logo, but is not necessarily THE logo - as if there is a one and only. As I noted in the edit summary, I personally think the medallion logo looks better in this setting, or for this use. If use of the other one were to be retained, I think it should definitely be reduced in size, since it seemed overbearing and not a good visual fit to the page, as inserted. ChristensenMJ (talk) 21:30, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

@ChristensenMJ: I responded to your email from [email protected] (to link my response to the original ticket in our system). What you chose to do with that information is up to you, but I ask that you take what I wrote under advisement. (t) Josve05a (c) 22:09, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Josve05a. As noted by this web page from BYU-Idaho, there are several approved logos. It's an overstatement to indicate there is only one and that others are not acceptable. The other issue is that within WP, an organization may have style guide preferences on how they are represented, but that doesn't create a binding circumstance that must be held to. Finally, I would note that my issue of concern is as much the assertion that one is wrong or unacceptable versus a personal, or even institutional, preference. As a preference, I still think the one looks better and the addition of the other logo in the box has been done in a way that is more visually workable. ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree with ChristensenMJ. We've had this issue with BYU-Idaho before. Really, the only other option for the infobox would be to use the official seal, which BYU-Idaho posted in SVG format. All of the articles on the other colleges in the Church Educational System (Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University–Hawaii, & LDS Business College) use the respective medallion logos. CES schools are somewhat unusual having the medallion logos that essentially act as a more common seal, but are officially logos instead of a seal. Never mind that the official logo of BYU-Idaho is clearly displayed on the bottom of the infobox similar to other university articles. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

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Possible Closing in the 1950's

Consideration was given to closing the campus in the 1950's. Church president David O. McKay visited the campus and decided to let Rick College remain in Rexberg, Idaho. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sydney Rigdon (talk • contribs) 05:03, 12 November 2017 (UTC)