Talk:Brockville

Minorities

I am not sure why south asian people keep on putting their ethnic group at the top of the minorities listing, they are not the first nor the most numerous nor is the list in alphabetical order. It is getting annoying because they like to hype themselves when they are really shit. I say the minority list should be placed in alphabetical order, starting with B for Black etc.

Have you considered being a bit less racist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esouder (talk • contribs) 06:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Accuracy

This article appears to be getting significant input by people who object to the city's usage of the tagline "birthplace of the Canadian Flag" - the last line of the reference cites money spent to date on rebranding as $699,800. This reference is incorrect. This amount of money has not been spent on rebranding. The City of Brockville has spent the cost of paint for 4 wooden signs identifying the tagline ( which is spent annually on the tagline of the day). It is not clear where the cited figure originated but it may be from the assertions of Bob Harper, a private citizen who is the prime supporter/promoter of the "birthplace of the Canadian Flag " who has identified in the media a cost associated with the time he has spent on the issue, the cost associated with a Canadian Flag on the Walmart property etc.. not sure how to fix this reference but for factuality and clarity it should be edited — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.185.88.226 (talk) 21:36, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page is getting a fair amount of vandalism this past few days. The vandal seems to be on a dynamic IP, and I'm loathe to long-term block a 16 bit subnet for one vandal. I suggest brief (say 1 hr) blocks without further warning (he's been warned enough, and mostly only innocent folks on the same ISP will see the warnings). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)-

organized crime

The Organized Crime section on the Brockville page is fantastic. I replaced the deleted paragraph on the North End gang as I feel that this is an important part of the city's culture. If however deleted it would like to explain why they felt it necessary to do so, I'm all ears.

The section is unverifiable. Personal knowledge is not enough; Wikipedia requires published sources to confirm any information in its articles. Bearcat 00:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Restored real section, and added sources.

Sports

Why is St. Mary in the "sports" section? I could see it being there if someone actually put info about St. Mary's sports in there but it's mostly extracurricular stuff. Yes, St Mary does a lot of great charity work, but it should be moved to a different section of the Brockville article. It'd be great if someone with knowledge of St Mary's sports history could write a section here.

And why no BCI section there? And why does it say St. Mary is the primary rival of TISS in many sports? I suspect someone biased from St Mary wrote that because it's just not true. BCI is a bigger rival of TISS than St Mary by far. St Mary gets crushed by the two other schools in most sports, and the BCI rowing team is excellent.

I'll probably add a BCI section later. 18 June -- VinnyMendoza

UPDATE: Okay, someone just decided to put St. Mary back in the sports, even though there was still nothing about sports in it. I made a "Charity" Section just for them. Whoever is doing this, don't put it back in Sports.

1. There's nothing about sports. 2. It completely reeks of bias, and shouldn't even be on Wikipedia. This is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, not a newsletter from St. Mary.

Actually, St. Mary's won a national rowing thing a while back. (I wasn't alive) but still, they won it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.145.234 (talk) 22:45, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Media

Is there a reason why someone removed my link to our online Brockville Media site?

Hockey

What kind of a Canadian City/Town doesn't have a section on hockey? There must be something someone could say about the subject...

Does anyone online know anything about an incident in about 1930 when some kids blew a hole in the railway tunnel with explosives? ( I understand from relatives that my dad was involved but I'd love to hear the whole story ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.97.159.153 (talk) 02:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Problematic edits

Please help keep this article encyclopedic by avoiding trivia sections as per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles, laundry lists as per Wikipedia:Embedded list, advertisment and self-promotion as per Wikipedia: is a not vehicle for propaganda and advertising, and first person perspective as per the policy concerning Wikipedia: Proper tone. First person pronouns such as "I" and "we" imply a point-of-view inconsistent with Wikipedia policy concerning Wikipedia: Neutral point of view. Articles written in this fashion are often deleted. Afv2006 21:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Shopping section written poorly

The shopping section is terribly written. It does not flow well when read. Not to mention, does it even serve a purpose? A shopping section for a small city isn't encyclopedic. It sounds like some huge advertisement for Brockville Tourism.

I'm removing it, and just modifying the Economy section to show the city is improving in growth.

--Vinny (talk) 05:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Rename page

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Mindmatrix 15:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Rename: Brockville, Ontario → Brockville

Per WP:CANSTYLE, the article about the city should be at the undisambiguated name. There is a minor conflict with Brockville Park, and the current undisambiguated title is a dab page listing only these two uses. The park may have some history attached to it, but it's actual title includes the term park; further, it is a building that no longer exists, and isn't as significant as the city anyway. All references to Brockville I've found are related to the city. Mindmatrix 19:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. Mindmatrix 19:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per CANSTYLE, a city has precedence over stadiums. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 21:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per primary usuage, with hatnote DAB to the stadium. DigitalC (talk) 03:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support as per the naming convention. Since the Brockville Park article is not a candidate to ever to be moved to the plain Brockville title, it does not give rise to a need for disambiguation. A hatnote will suffice. Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified

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Indigenous history

I have removed an edit which added an Indigenous history that was not specific to Brockville. Most of the edit was unsourced, and what was sourced referred to a 1000 km-wide map, and a teacher's guide to "traditional territory" in Ontario. I have searched for an Indigenous history specific to Brockville and have found nothing in the following:

• The Canadian Encyclopedia
• Encyclopedia Britannica
• Brockville Tourism Visitor Centre
• Brockville History Album
• Ottawa Road Trips
• Handbook of Brockville History
• Heritage Brockville

If an editor is able to locate specific information about the presence of an Indigenous settlement in Brockville please add it, as it will improve the article. However, if the information is applicable to an extremely large area, and not specific to Brockville, this would not benefit those reading the article, and should be placed on a less-specific article. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

First of all, just because there is no evidence of a permanent indigenous settlement within the city limits of Brockville does not mean that the land on which Brockville was situated was not inhabited. That's confusing sedentism with inhabitation. The law in Canada clearly states it is wrong to presume that indigenous peoples do not occupy a place just because they don't have a fixed settlement there: see Tsilhqot'in Nation v British Columbia.

Second, the sources cited are specific to the Brockville area. I quote:

• Pendergast: "About A.D. 1450, a second cluster of sequentially occupied and contemporaneous large inland agriculture villages appears some fifty miles to the southwest of the Summerstown cluster in the vicinity of Prescott. The Roebuck site is probably the best known of these." Roebuck is 20 km away from the city limits of Brockville. The McKeown site in Maynard is 12 km away. Both are located within the Brockville census agglomeration. Fig. 10 of the article by Warrick I cited depicts the Roebuck/Prescott zone of Iroquoian habitation extending as far south as Rockport, Ontario, 30 km upstream of Brockville. (Prescott is 20 km downstream.) Nobody who has any understanding of how these indigenous peoples used the land would dispute the notion that they inhabited the land where Brockville is situated.
• Surtees, p. 32: "The Oswegatchie Indians occupied the St. Lawrence shoreline west of St. Regis. Their territory, from the Long Sault [75 km downstream from Brockville] to the Toniato River [now Jones Creek, 13 km upstream from Brockville], was clearly within the Indian Territory as described by the Royal Proclamation." That's clear evidence of presence of a permanent indigenous population in the Brockville area.

The point is: we're not talking about a "1000 mile stretch of land", as you put it on my talk page, but an area only 50 to 90 km from end to end, i.e., smaller than the United Counties of Leeds and Grenville of which Brockville is the county seat. The next sentence in this article talks about the "area of Ontario first settled by English speakers in 1784". Is that referring to all of southern Ontario? It's certainly not referring to Brockville proper, as the paragraph goes on to say that Brockville was not settled till 1785. But I don't see anyone complaining about that sentence not being Brockville-specific. The transportation section talks about bridges and airports as far away as Ottawa and Ivy Lea. (Even Brockville Airport is not in Brockville.) But I don't see complaints that these things aren't relevant to Brockville.

I added one more sentence regarding the prehistory of the general region: "Human inhabitation of the upper St. Lawrence River dates at least as far back as the late Middle Woodland period by the Point Peninsula people." This is based on the statement by Pendergast: "It is clear that by late Middle-Woodland times much of the area at the foot of Lake Ontario and both shores of the St. Lawrence River, at least as far east as Sorel, were occupied by a long-established indigenous, riverine-oriented, Point Peninsula people." Anyone wondering about the prehistory of what is now Brockville would find this helpful. How does removing any of the information I've provided help anyone? Cobblet (talk) 23:50, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

The map you provided is for the "Brockville census agglomeration". Brockville's actual boundaries are shown here, and Prescott, Maynard, and Rockport are not located within Brockville's boundaries. Because those Aboriginal settlements are out of scope, you may wish to add that information to another article where they would be helpful and appropriate.

As you mentioned, this source states: "The Oswegatchie Indians occupied the St. Lawrence shoreline west of St. Regis. Their territory, from the Long Sault to the Toniato River, was clearly within the Indian Territory".

Regarding the Oswegatchie Indians, this source says they were comprised of "80 Oswegatchie warriors", while this source states the Oswegatchie were "a tribe seldom mentioned by the historian, as they never, in their palmiest days, mustered over two hundred fighting-men, and are at present nearly if not quite extinct".

Let's say the Oswegatchie of the St. Lawrence--families included--numbered about 500, and they occupied 93 km of shoreline along the St. Lawrence, of which Brockville, at 4.5 km wide, is 5 percent. In the absence of any indication of settlement in Brockville, and no historical record of Aboriginals in Brockville, it is speculation at best that the Oswegatchiemay ever set foot in Brockville. The text added is out of scope and speculative, and should best be added to a less specific article. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:02, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying that everything the article mentions must be located in the city proper? Then why does the article mention the Thousand Islands, the death of Brock at Queenston, Brockville Airport, Ottawa International Airport, the bridges at Ivy Lea and Prescott, a factory in Maitland (the assertion that Brockville residents work there is unsourced), and the Brockville Mental Health Centre, none of which are located in Brockville proper? Why the double standard for indigenous history vs. everything else?

It is clear from the source I provided that the Oswegatchie were in control of the land on which Brockville stands. If your position is that the Oswegatchie people did not own that land, why did the British have to negotiate with them to evacuate it? If they did own the land, why can't we mention it in the article? Cobblet (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight, Surtees states on p. 32 that by 1751, 396 Oswegatchie families were living in several villages in their territory, before the Seven Years' War reduced their numbers to the levels you're describing. Cobblet (talk) 17:11, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

So we have no direct source. Are you trying to say that the land was part of the Crawford Purchase?Moxy- 15:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

No. The Crawford Purchase did not cover Brockville. As the Canadian Encyclopedia points out: "Some sources incorrectly state that Crawford purchased two additional parcels of land along the shores of the St. Lawrence River and Lake Ontario. The first one covers the land between Brockville and the Quebec border (except for a narrow strip running inland from the river at St. Regis, which was acquired in 1847 from the Haudenosaunee). Crawford allegedly bought this land from the Algonquin and Haudenosaunee at the same time as the Trent River to Brockville tract. In fact, this territory was acquired by the St. Regis and Oswegatchie purchases of 1784." The Surtees report I referenced shows that Brockville was specifically included in the Oswegatchie purchase, as I've explained previously. Cobblet (talk) 15:45, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Two points. First, yes Cobblet, all that puffery about the 1000 Islands and the Ottawa airport was added to make this place seem more important than it is. The information is out of scope, and well-intentioned editors add this stuff all the time. Most experienced editors are like ninjas with out of scope content. Here is a content dispute I'm having with an editor who wants to add a park to a city article, but the park isn't located in the city. Other editors add decorative images of things not located in the city. None of it improves the article for Wikipedia's readers.

Second, no fewer than 12 sources have been discussed here, and not one of those sources says a word about Indigenous people ever setting foot in Brockville.

Ok...let's say an editor removed the redirect at Tincap, Ontario, a hamlet a few kilometres west of Brockville, and expanded Tincap into an article. Then they copied the Indigenous information from Brockville, and added it to Tincap. Viola! Tincap is now a Wikipedia article.

Not so fast, say others, Tincap needs to pass WP:GEOLAND.

But look at all the Indiginous People who occupied the enormous piece of land on which Tincap is located, they reply, surely one of them has stepped foot into Tincap? Moreover, Tincap was once located within Upper Canada! And look at that map of Rogers cable coverage, see Tincap right there?

The Indigenous history recently added to this article is out of scope and decorative, and should instead be added to a less-specific article like United Counties of Leeds and Grenville, where it actually has some significance to Wikipedia's readers. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Please do not remove the information regarding the indigenous history of Brockville unless you also remove all references to the Thousand Islands, Brock's death at Queenston, Brockville Airport, Ottawa International Airport, the bridges at Ivy Lea and Prescott, the factory in Maitland, and the Brockville Mental Health Centre; as none of these are located within the city limits of Brockville. Anything short of this would be an unjustifiable double standard.

What you're saying is that Tincap is unlikely to meet WP:GNG, let alone WP:GEOLAND which is a more stringent guideline. Fair enough, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

WP:OOS is an essay, not policy. But for what it's worth, it says, "All material that is notable, referenced, and that a reader would be likely to agree matches the specified scope must be covered (at least in a summarised fashion)." Both the Canadian Encyclopedia article on the Crawford Purchase and the Mississaugas of the Credit use Brockville to identify the extent of various indigenous territories and land agreements. Institutions strictly within Brockville city limits that agree Brockville stands on indigenous territory include the Brockville Library and St. Lawrence College, while the Catholic District School Board of Eastern Ontario and the Leeds, Grenville & Lanark District Health Unit also explicitly acknowledge that the city of Brockville stands on indigenous territory. Given all that, how can you say that information regarding the indigenous inhabitation of the Brockville area has no significance to people reading an article about Brockville? Cobblet (talk) 16:43, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Whether or not an identified Indigenous person physically planted their foot atop the land which is now known as Brockville is entirely irrelevant to the fact that Indigenous title exists in that place. That fact is notable background information on Brockville, and is certainly within scope as historical information here, even if more specific details about the relevant land purchase would be better written elsewhere. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:18, 6 June 2021 (UTC)