Talk:Brokpa

Brokpa in Baltistan

Uanfala, I don't remember which source had it, but here are some that show up in searches:

• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y6Y-L4ogfhIC&pg=PA148
• https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IngMAQAAMAAJ&dq=name+given+by+Baltis (p. 31)
• Also some results here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Shina+speakers+in+Baltistan%22

Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 14:11, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Here is a nice quote:

Shina speakers in Baltistan are called Brokpa by speakers of Balti and have been for centuries (cf. Biddulph 1880: 46). Their variety of Shina has also been called Brokskat by scholars (for example, Schmidt 1985b: 680).

I also remember that there are Brokpa living on both the sides of LOC in the Indus Valley and they used to get together periodically to celebrate their common festival. I think this got shut down when the border got sealed during the Kargil War. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:22, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

References

Please correct these misinformation here

The brokpa people are only in dha ,hanu ,garkhone ,darchik ,batalik ,sharchey ,chulichan , These are a very small village and the population of dha hanu is around 1700, Garkhone is somewhere around 1800 and darchik is 1000 and batalik ,sharchey and chulichan is around 1500. So the total population is 5500 only in india And 500 in ganokh village . Which makes 6000 population. But There is a also people of called brokpa in drass which has a population of an around 35000 , The brokpa of dha hanu and brokpa of drass are completely different group speaking different langauge which is unintelligible to each other . And these page is about brokpa people of dha hanu , But they uses the population of drass brokpa which has been counted in a census as brokpa as schedule tribe So Wikipedia is accepting the schedule tribe population and it shows more than 30000 brokpa population . And these need to be correct . Minaro123 (talk) 20:35, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Please changed the name from brokpa to brokpa-minaro or Minaro

Because the census of India 2011 schedule tribe of India have combined shin people and brokpa - Minaro has included in a one schedule tribe which has a somewhere around 40000 population . however people of drass has already included in a brokpa- shin people page and they speaks shina langauge .the brokpa - minaro has only 3000 langauge and they speaks Brokskat .brokskat is unintelligible to shina langauge . Minaro123 (talk) 07:47, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Could admin please change it Minaro123 (talk) 17:19, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

References

why are you adding the misleading census of 2011

Hello sir , The schedule tribe of 2011 census added Brokpa-minaro and shin people as term as brokpa. Please check the census for reference. And the population of Brokpa -minaro is hardly 3000, And the population ofShin people of ladakh is more than 30 thousand .

They speak a different language and they are belong to different ethnicity . The langauge the brokpa -minaro speak is hardly 3000 and that is called brokskat .

If these page is about the brokpa schedule tribe of census 2011 which included shin people and brokpa -minaro both , Then they says that brokpa are found only in dha,hanu and darchik . The people of dha ,hanu and darchik is a minaro-brokpa and they are hardly 3000. If these page if about brokpa schedule tribe then please add drass where there are 30000 brokpa and add a picture of drassi shin people. Id these is a case then i am going to create a sperate page about brokpa -minaro which are endangered ethnic group and hardly 3000 people are there Minaro123 (talk) 08:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Minaro123: You need to provide sources for this information. See WP:OR. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 13:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

There were some user who is reverting back the brokpa page to its previous edit where there was a misleading population number for these brokpa ethnic group, Now these page is improved and misleading ethnic group of Brokpa is added here , Please avoid reverting back without a discussion Minaro123 (talk) 16:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Since your edits have been reverted (multiple times), you need to propose your changes here and obtain WP:CONSENSUS. Please do not reinstate contentious content without CONSENSUS. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Minaro123, can you provide a link this 2011 census document that mentions "Brokpa-minaro"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: "Brokpa : they live in dha hanu and has a population of 1920 citing cencus of India. 1991 .

Dards:They are confined mainly to Drass and the Indus Valley. Dards living in and around Drass are Muslim."

There is also written that multiple ethinic groups like 1:Brokpa ,Drokpa, Dard,shin comes under one Schedule Tribe

Brokpa of dha hanu, garkone ,darchik is called Minaro. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 (talk • contribs)

Indpaeia is user-generated conten and doesn't count as a reliable source. heritaage-key.com is a random web site with unknown credentials. In your opening statement, you said Please check the census for reference. Have you checked it? Yes or no, please! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:40, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

References

@Kautilya3: Gujjar and Bakarwal are a nomedic tribe and they are two different ethnic group as they have got a different ethnic pages for that but listed under a single Scheduled Tribe under Indian constitution and you would get the combined population of them according to cencus but wikipedia have made them a different pages .

Similarly, Brokpa(Drokpa)or minaro of dha hanu valley has only population of somewhere around 3000 ,

But according to Indian constitution ,these brokpa of dha hanu is added with dard(shin) Brokpa of Drass and Baramulla district under a single Scheduled Tribe .

They are called brokpa because of living in a hilly area .

The hilly settlement people in Bhutan and Tibetan community is also called brokpa ,but there is no similarities among them ethinically and language

The brokpa of dha hanu is found in only four village which is dha,hanu ,garkhone ,darchik call themselves minaro ,please read article.

Brokpa(Drokpa) or Minaro of dha hanu who speaks brokskat and Shin(Dard) brokpa of drass and baramulla deserve a separate pages ,theys speak shina . -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 (talk • contribs)

That is not correct. All the Brokpa in the Kashmir region speak dialects of Shina. Brokskat is a dialect of Shina. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Jain and Cardona write:

Brokskat is spoken around the village of Garkhon in Ladakh by approximately 3000 people (Ethnologue 1996). Though historically it belongs with the Gilgit group, Brokskat has converged with Tibeto-Burman languages and is not mutually intelligible with other Shina dialects (Schmidt 1998a, b, Radloff 1992: 99).

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:19, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: No where in the image you have shown is written that Brokpa is a dilect of Shina langauge , it has given an ambiguous statement which says " brokskat belong to gilgiti group which doesn't mean that brokskat is a dilect of Shina langauge , Secondly if these langauge is not mutually ineligible to other Shina langauge then how could it be a dilect of Shina? The research says Shianic group of eastern dardic group has many dilect . 1: Brokskat 2:shina:Shina is divided into three dilect That is

2.1:Astori
   2.1.1) gurezi 
    2.1.2) Drassi 
2.2: Chilasi 
2.3: gilgiti 

These langauge tree was made after a research and studying of book . But in different book , different writer write differently according to their opinion .

So , brokskat is not dilect of Shina langauge ,though it is a shiniac langauge .

Brokskat is not mutually intelligence with other Shina dilect .( Written in book)

Though ,gurezi ,drassi speak the Astori dilect of[ Shina] langauge ,and they are called Shina people which they have a already separate page . .

The drassi and gurezi people who speaks Shina langauge are already included In a shina people so no need to make a sperate page for them . My proposal is just to changed the name of "Brokpa" to "Brokpa ( Minaro) "or "Brokpa of Aryan valley" or Minaro or simply keep the Brokpa so that it would avoid confusion among other people .

Minaro123 (talk) 10:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I belong to these Brokpa tribe of dha hanu valley, Our people doesn't get the benefits of protection of language and culture because NGO and government would ignore us because these Brokpa pages says we are 40000, but in reality we are only 3000, even though being the endangered ethnic group and speaks a endangered langauge of brokskat . Brokpa(Minaro) is a dying distinct ethnicc group and please show a truth to the world by including a right numbers of population which is between 3000 to 5000

Minaro123 (talk) 10:59, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@Gotitbro: sir ,please take some intervention in these issue and show the truth to the world .

Baily(1924) divides Shina into three dilect that is gilgiti ,Astori ,gurez, and drass .

Baily doesn't included brokskat into Shina langauge .

And moreever they says that Brokskat is unintelligible with other Shina dilect and brokskat is a outlier of Shina langauge.

Minaro123 (talk) 11:21, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

When these Brokpa page was created at first ,it was only about the Brokpa of dha hanu valley ,please have a look at the first edit of these Brokpa page

References

Page scope

There is an unresolved problem of what this page is about.

• According to the British Raj sources, Brokpa/Brogpa was the term used for all Dards living among the Tibetic speakers in Ladakh and Baltistan. These people probably number 50,000–100,000.
• A smaller group of them live in the lower Indus valley (the "Sham" region) around the village of Garkhon, who speak the Brokskat language. Their number was listed as 3,000 by Cardona, citing Ethnologue 1996. The current Ethnologue lists 10,000 as their number, citing a Christian evangelical source (probably unreliable).

Should this page be about the first group or the second group? (Pinging Uanfala, TrangaBellam, Gotitbro, Fylindfotberserk, Aman.kumar.goel, FactsResearcher, Utcursch) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:31, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

This page has been about Brokstat speakers since it was first created; and not other related Dardic groups (e.g. Shina). It should stick with that since we are differentiating between the groups already hereon enwiki. How the term was/is liberally used can be mentioned in the body but should not be the basis of this. Gotitbro (talk) 15:05, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Then, where do we cover the remaining Brokpa, declared as a scheduled tribe in India? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

• Proposal - To split this page into two, one titled Brokpa, covering all the Brokpa people in Baltistan and Drass, and another titled Brokpa Minaro, covering the Dha-Hanu people. The latter group is apparently much older than the former. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:06, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

(Pinging Kautilya3, Gotitbro) The remaining brokpa of Dras in Kargil and Gurez in Baramulla who speaks a Astori dilect of shina langauge is already convered in Shina people page. So no need to split it. These page should be for Brokskat speakers of brokpa ethnic group of dha hanu region . Instead you can add a "brokpa ,dard and shin" terminology in the page of shina people section .

References

Make these page solely dedicated for Brokpa of dha hanu valley

Make these page solely dedicated for Brokpa of dha hanu valley, because I have already created the Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) page to include the Dardic tribe which has two ethnic group and added i. A Schedule Tribes sometimes called Brokpa - shin or Dard with the choice of writer ,there are the schedule tribe of former of Jammu and Kashmir state . You can add the British Raj Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) definition of Brokpa there , but

These page Brokpa is dedicated to the Brokpa of  dha hanu valley of Brokpa who speaks Brokskat.

And there population is only 1920 according to the 1991 cencus of India they are found in only Dah, Leh,hanoo,garkon and darchik villages and add accordingly their population . There origin is not Chilas, please add their correct origin as there have been discussed by a newspaper. Also add their cultural dress,festivals,rituals and belief accordingly. Minaro123 (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

References

These articles has some information taken from Bhutanese Brokpa delete it, the brokpa tribe of Bhutan is different from the brokpa of dha hanu

@Kautilya3: Brokpa is a Tibetan name for " hilly people " , Brokpa is a name given to the Minaro people of dha hanu by the Tibetan decent group of Ladakhi and Balti because of them living in a hilly places in past. It is not their ethnici name ,they call themselves minaro .( There are many references search on book) . Similarly Dards is a word for hilly people in Sanskrit langauge . Though Minaro people are not of Tibetan decent.

There is a Tibetan decent group oin Bhutan also called " Brokpa" because of living in a hilly places of Bhutan , they are called "sagtengpa " or dakpa or Brokpa . The reference is here . And these sagtengpa ,dakpa is added in these [ [brokpa ]] page under the section of groups . They are called sagtengpa because they live in Sakteng valley of Bhutan , Sakteng + pa( pa is used for a person who live there) . Sakteng pa means " a person who lives in sakteng . Likelywise , Brok pa is used for someone who lives in a brok( hill) And i notices these before that's the reason I edited it and corrected in past in these wikepedia page but there are "so called" "expert" who always reverted my edit . Please correct it ,i am always with real and raw truth Minaro123 (talk) 09:49, 2 December 2022 (UTC) Please change.these page name to Minaro ,it is a name which they called themselves , While brokpa or Dard is like saying " hilly people " . There could be many hilly people in these world and it would create confusions among them

References

Change these page " brokpa " to " minaro" because of the following reason

@Kautilya3:

Change the name from brokpa to Minaro .

Brokpa means " hill people " in Tibetan langauge . And Dard also means " hill people " in indo aryan langauge . There are many hill people in different part of the world , Such as 1:Brokpa of Bhutan (hilly people of Bhutan)),they are in merak and sakteng of Bhutan ,

2:Brokpa (hill people) of Arunachal

3:Drokpa ( a pronounciation of Brokpa in Tibetan accent)):( a hill people of Tibet) They are also found in Tibet .

4: Brokpa of Ladakh and Baltistan>

These people are hill people and that's the reason they are being called brokpa , Brokpa is not a ethinicity or linguistic term .

And it shouldn't be a name of a ethinic group , The brokpa of dha hanu call themselves minaro , and the langauge they speak is also called Minaro ( see brokskat) While other Tibetan decent of their neighbours like Ladakhis call them brokpa or Drokpa . .it would be difficult to distinguish them if we call every hill peopl as brokpa irrespective of their native name Minaro123 (talk) 10:22, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

proposal Make a separate page called Brokpa equipment to " hill people of "Tibet,Bhutan and india" and write the defination of Brokpa there and list all the brokpa communities there ( hill people) , But when in term of Ethinic group , write their individual ethnic name like Minaro for dha hanu brokpa with reference. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 (talk • contribs)

 Not done. Please see WP:TITLE for how pages should be titled, in particular WP:COMMONNAME. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:59, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 2 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved. Withdrawn by the nominator in the light of the discussion. Kautilya3 (talk) 23:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

---

• Brokpa → Brokpa Minaro
• Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) → Brokpa

– The page Brokpa was started to cover the Dardic tribes in the lower Indus valley in Ladakh, but the term "Brokpa" is used for a much larger group of people distributed in Baltistan and the Drass area of the Kargil district. The proposal is to rename this page to "Brokpa Minaro", Minaro being the endonym used by this group, so that the "Brokpa" page title is released to cover all other groups. Kautilya3 (talk) 23:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: The lede of the second article says "Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard and Shin are a groups of Different Tribal communities who are included under a single Scheduled Tribes in the Indian constitution speaking the Dardic language." (Govt. of India ST designation – #4 under Jammu & Kashmir) We should not rename it to one subpart of that group, as if they are the only members of this group. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 09:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

CX Zoom, the article's statement you quote is WP:OR and is not backed by any reliable source. The category used in the census does not necessarily imply that there were four different groups. It could mean that four terms have been used for a single group. Moreover, these people also extend into Pakistan-administered Kashmir (and much more numerously in fact). So we can't treat the Government of India as a sole authoritative source.

More generally, this is a newly created page that is in limbo because its scope is not clear. Retitling it will help clarify the scope and then plenty of reliable sources exist for developing it. I suggest you read the Name section of this page for an accurate picture. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The only relevant line in the section you cite is "As the Tibetan languae pronounciation varies by region, the same name is pronounced by Ladakhis as Drokpa or Dokpa" which again is "WP:OR". Add a reference maybe. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 13:50, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

CX Zoom, please see the top line of the page where the THL transliteration is given. "Drokpa" is the present-day Tibetan pronunciation of that word in the majority of Tibetosphere, except for some isolated communities. This is a well-known fact evidenced in numerous places, e.g., [1]. This is purely linguistic issue and has nothing to do with any communities. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I have been pinged somewhere at this talk-page; need to consult a few books, before !voting, Ty, TrangaBellam (talk) 14:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

@Kautilya3: In most of the books ,articles and other resources , these Dardic tribes Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) are called "Dards" ( search Dards in books resources and internet and see by yourself) And These Dards are called brokpa by only the Tibetic ethinic neighbour which is Ladakhis ,purigpa and Balti and brokpa is a their Tibetic word . However These Dardic langauge speaker are popular as Dards among writers and other non Tibetic people . Dards and Brokpa has a same meaning which means Hill people (( you would find a lot of reference on internet)). Should we title them as " Brokpa " or " Dards" , choose the title wisely by looking at the total number of reliable reference which supports these Title . My point of view is ,these group should have a Title as "Dards " and it would be more appropriate because it would has a reference to back up and in name section you can write like " Dards are called brokpa by its neighbouring group like Ladakhis and Balti . There Dards group contain a a different ethnic group and there be more than one langauge spoken by these Dards . -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minaro123 (talk • contribs)

Minaro123, I don't understand what point you are making. The Brokpa Minaro are equally "Dards" just as all other groups. See Vohra, Ethnographic Notes on the Buddhist Dards (1982). By your argument, we don't need this page either! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Dard people is not a single ethnic group which could be traced to one ancestor so far ( cited in source) ,Dard people are the one who speak Dardic language , Kalasha people are other Dardic people are also counted as Dards by some writers( see in book for "Dard" for reference) . Dards people more like saying tlike Dravidian peoples , indo Aryan people rather than pointing to any single ethnic group. For example: It is not possible to make only Dravadian people for whole Dravadian speaking langauge , there are TamilTelugu people ,so they deserve individual page . My proposal is deeply search the mentioned of "Dard" in all book and list all the people that it refer to and write down their reference and changed the Brokpa, Drokpa, Dard, and Shin(Dardic Tribes) to Dard people and list their ethnic group there as claimed by a writers . And Minaro people, Shina people would be a ethnicity under these Dard Tribes . @Kautilya3: Dards people as [[2]] page is already created as I have found just now , Rohit vohra meant Minaro people by mean Buddhist Dards, because apparently by sources , minaro is the only Dards who is still following the Buddhist religion.

It quotes " " Dards”, nowadays denoting the speakers of Dardic languages, in Francke's time it was used for Burushaski speaker and even Tibetic." [[3]]

@Kautilya3: After i read many books and article and lot of research on the topic of Dardic tribe , and Brokpa my proposal is :

Proposal: final solution: First point : 1: Don't change the name from "brokpa" to "brokpa Minaro" because let it be , because there are more than around thousands and book and newspapers ,articles refering Buddhist Dards as Brokpa.They are residing in around dha hanu, These Buddhist Dards are called brokpa by most journal . However the call themselves minaro , brokpa is a name given to them by outsider ,They speak Brokskat, I will send you the reference of those book ,if you want ,as you would find it abundantly on reliable Google book and library and newspapers etc.There population was somewhere around 2000 according to 1991 cencus ,please refer . They are Buddhist Dards.

2: Second point :

Dards refer  to group of people speaking Dardic languages ,  there are  grouped as Dards because of having archaic words of Indo iranian in their langauge, however there is no evidence of having them common ancestor .( Written in Dardic langauge page).

These Dard people is like saying ,indo aryan people , Dravadian people , Caucasian etc .

Dard people could not be a single ethinicity ,it is a word for all those speaker who speak Dardic langauge .

3: third point : Brokpa,Drokpa , Dard and shin are made up of multiple Tribes who are grouped into a single schedule Tribes ,they belong different ethinicity as I have given a reference in the talk section of Brokpa,Drokpa,dard and shin ( Dardic Tribes ) page ,

4: Schedule Tribes is only for unprivilege and those who lives in a far flung areas . Though there were many Dardic Tribes or Dards in former jammu and kashmir like kashmiri(speaks Kashmiri), Brokpa( Buddhist Dards),Drokpa( shin , speaking shina of Drass) etc .

However , the Dards like kashmiri weren't included under the Schedule Tribes because they were privileged and living in a developed area of Kashmir ,they are not a tribal people .

Schedule tribe of India has included all unprivilege Dardic Tribes into a single group called Brokpa, Drokpas,Dard and shin . The Dard of Drass ( called as shin because they speaks Astori dilect of shina ) are all muslim as cited by sources and Dards of North kahsmiir ( Gurez valley in Baramulla) are muslim .

5: we shouldn't use the whole cencus population of a (Schedule Tribes) Tribes of Dards Brokpa ,Drokpa,Dard and shin which was around 40,000 for the small Buddhist Dards known as Brokpa , The brokpa were somewhere around 2000 according to the 1981 cencus Please correct the cencus and also things like their origin in Brokpa page needs to change , Please give me a Liberty to change to brokpa page ,i would cited every sentence with a justified sentence because I am from ladakh and. I belong to brokpa tribe so I can easily search for reference in book by using certain keywords which I am familiar with related to brokpa people , Brokpa is a sperate ethnic group speaking brokskat and they called themselves minaro ,these group are believed to be a pure aryan and some rearacher consider them to to the descendants of alexander army, it is cited by many award winning research articles and book .

The last point: The thing you are saying that brokpa was used by British Empire for whole Dards once of ladakh and baltistan was once ,There are no reference for that , maybe there is hardly one or two ,and British Raj happened Before 1947, and It is outdated ,And i think British Raj uses the word brokpa because Dard used to live in a hilly places. After i did a reaserch in throughout the library , nowhere any single articles or book is published with a title Brokpa and i including Brokpa as A Dards of Former Jammu and Kashmir and gilgit baltistan .Since Brokpa meant Hill people , the balti sometimes use these word referring the shina speaking people .It is not their ethinic word ,it meant pasture or hill people, not only in gilgit baltistan,but also in Bhutan ,sakteng valley and even in Arunachal ,they use the word brokpa referring to the hill people of their state . However now the Brokpa(Buddhist Dards of around dha ) term represent a official Ethnicity term of Minaro people ,as you will found a more than few thousand of articles ,book of them in Google . Now brokpa word is privileged only to Buddhist Dard to say Officialy by writers and historians and even by official government as of 2022.

You seem to be right about the last point. There aren't that many references to the Dards of Drass as "Brokpa" and those that exist are not very strong. So, I will withdraw the move request. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:34, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Vohra, Rohit (1982), "Ethnographic Notes on the Buddhist Dards of Ladakh: The Brog-Pā", Zeitschrift für Ethnologie, 107 (1): 69–94, JSTOR 25841799

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Aryan valley nominated for deletion.

The page on Aryan valley has been nominated for deletion. You can find the deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aryan valley. Please feel free to add your comments since that topic intersects with the topic of this page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Population of Brokpa

Elinruby, kautilya3,

Brokpa is a name given by Ladakhis .however their native and true name is Minaro. Traditionally. In ancient time. Minaro is a Ethnic group speaking Minaro langauge and following Minaro religion . These people were concentrated in Aryan valley ( Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon , Darchik). The all people of Dha ,hanu ,Garkon ans Darchik are Minaro. However Traditionally the Minaro people were also Hamlets like Sharchey ,Chulichan and batalik in India . In chulichan there were a mixture of Minaro with Tibetan muslim . There were only two household of Minaro in Tsirmo(silmo) and Lalung . And Ganokh village was inhabited by Minaro.

In ancient time , all of them use to follow :Minaro religion which is animism :worship of their own sprits , they had a rituals like sacrifice a goat to their own spirit who keep a eye on their area and protect them from any kind of misfortune. They used to have a Sabdak ,where they used to offer a small price of food before eating them .They don't use to take the milk of cow, They don't use to eat the meat of cow , they had social restrictions to use any kind related to cow because it's considered bad for them.

Festivals: They had their festival which is used like Bono-na ,which is used to celebrate to Thanksgiving their Dieties for good crops . Traditional dresses: They had their. Unique traditional dresses . Greetings: they had their unique way of greetings which is mentioned by a British explorer in 19 century.

AT present : Only the people of dha ,hanu ,Garkon and Darchik have still retained their ancient culture , festival ,rituals , religion ,dresses , traditional folk song .

These people of dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik have superficially accepted Buddhism, however these people still follows their ancient culture and religion side by side . And they still call themselves ' Minaro'. And more interestingly still these people follows polygamy and marries only in their own community to keep them pure Minaro.

However, The Minaro who was settled in Ganokh , Sharchey and few of them are in chulichan etc . They are converted to strictly Shia Islam . They follows islamic cultural. Since their conversion of Islam , they have forgotten their ancient culture , traditional, religion . Only they speaks ' Minaro' langauge .

Interestingly ,now the Minaro of Aryan valley doesn't consider them their own community . Now ,the muslim Minaro are openly married with their muslim neighbour like Balti etc .

2: There is not a single Hindu Minaro, no Minaro have got converted to hindu .so the brokpa page says there is some Hindu brokpa which is not true ,if there is any then please mention any single articles showing them . They are mostly Buddhist Dards who still practice their ancient religion . And there are fewer strictly Shia brokpa who no longer practice any single ritual of their past . Conclusion: 1:Should we consider the Muslim Brokpa a Minaro? Because they are strictly musium followers and mingled with their neighbours muslim? 2: can we have a more correct number of Minaro population and their religion? 3: For example:In kalash people , there is a statement"people in nuristan had the same culture and practised a faith very similar to that of the Kalash, differing in a few minor particulars.". However the people who left the kalasha religion are not considered kalsha people ,they are given a lower important . So , should we also consider the Muslim Minaro who left their ancient religion and mingled with their neighbours muslim as Minaro? I want to have a Discussion , i don't want to blindly go and change without having a Discussion . collaboration and discussion is one of the policies of wikepedia . 3: The article of Brokpa needs to have a correct figure after a series of discussion with source . The present Brokpa articles needs improvement Minaro123 (talk) 09:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Minaro123:Both by the Kalasha society and the government, the Kalash people who converted to Islam are still considered to be members of the Kalasha ethnicity but not the Kalasha religion. They are further divided into two groups, the 5,000-person northern Kalash population which practises animism with a Muslim minority, and the 3,000-person southern Kalash population which practises Islam with a minority of Animists. And let me be clear about one thing: Yes, the Nuristanis and Kalash people practised a kind of similar Kafiristani religion that was followed throughout northern Pakistan, but the Kalash and Nuristanis are two distinct ethnic groups that are separated by genetics rather than religion. Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Although I am focused on this one at the moment. If Minaro is a cultural designation -- and there are parallels to this among the North American indigenous, so this is not exactly unheard of -- then genetic studies are irrelevant. As an aside, the term Bropka also seems to be likely erroneous and due to British amateurs adopting the nomenclature of another ethnic group. There is a parallel to this in North America, where 9th-century ruins were ascribed to the "Anasazi" because that is what the Navajo told them. Come to find out "Anasazi" means "enemies" in the Navajo language. They are now known as the "Pueblo ancestors". We call people by the name the call themselves. Look it up. Question: do the Muslims Consider themselves Minaro? It sounds to me like they want to assimilate. But bottom line, yes, we should discuss this cultural vs genetic thing.Elinruby (talk) 11:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The muslim doesn't call themselves minaro , there is not a single articles written about them Minaro123 (talk) 11:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby:In my opinion, the number of Brokpas who adhere to their ancestral faith should be noted in a separate article specifically on the Brokpa religion, but this article should also note the number of Brokpas who practise other religions, such as Animism, Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism (If any). Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Hassan Janhal I am not necessarily against a separate article about the religion, although I suspect that it too would be repressed in the way that Aryan valley is currently being brigaded. I am just an outsider trying to ask honest questions in an effort to clarify. The "Bropka" designation seems as though it is used in different ways by different people. But if it is a cultural designation, then language and religion are designators/proxies of religion, at least where I come from. Minaro123 seems to be talking about animist Brokskat speakers who grow barley and apricots. According to him, those who practice Shia and intermarry with the Balti are not Minaro because they do not practice the religion. Right now I am just trying to explore the opinions that underlie this strife, without attempting to determine who is "right". It does trouble me that we are trying to lump several different cultural groups into one designation as "hill-dwellers". But I am very willing to discuss this on my talk page, if you are interested. I am actually thinking that perhaps the solution might instead be a separate page about the Minaro, and then this page can be about the Ladakhi word Brokpa and the various groups it is applied to. Elinruby (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: The Brokpas are always referred to as Buddhist Dards in the materials that I have been able to find; they are never described as practising animism. Are there any references for Animist Brokpas? and does Minaro123 have any references to support his claim that Brokpas who practise religions other than Animism do not go by the name Minaro? If not then it violates one of Wikipedia's three core content policy of not having original research. And yes, I'm willing to participate in the discussion about this topic on your talk page. Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Please see the page move discussion above before making fresh proposals. Wikipedia nomenclature follows WP:COMMONNAME, not based on what is "right".

Hassan Janhal, the move discussion also gravitated to the view that the "Brokpa" term is currnetly in use for only the "central" group (central Ladakh + Ganokh in Baltistan). These people apparently arrived in the first millennium AD and speak Brokskat, which has been called the "oldest surviving Dardic language". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: did make a valid point in this instance. Hassan Janhal (talk) 12:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Brokskat

"Oldest surviving Dardic language" is nonsense; I have nil idea what it means and would be surprised to see any serious linguist reiterate the claim. Besides, I added the very-obvious Purik (TB) influence from the immediate neighbors. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think anybody would take it at face value based on Ethnologue. But I suppose it means that it is pretty old, and that it retained its archaic features much more than other varieties of Shina. for our purposes, it also means that these people split off from their parent very long ago, and they are nothing like the neo-Brokpa that arrived in the 16th-17th centuries. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Aggarwal, Ravina

• 2004. Beyond Lines of Control: Performance and Politics on the Disputed Borders of Ladakh, India. Durham: Duke University Press. doi:10.2307/j.ctv125jfkn

• van Beek, Martijn

• 1996. Identity Fetishism and the Art of Representation: The Long Struggle for Regional Autonomy in Ladakh. PhD diss., Cornell University. ProQuest 304304909

• Bhan, Mona

• 2006. Visible Margins: State, Identity & Development among Brogpas of Ladakh. PhD diss., Rutgers University. ProQuest 305292033

• Vohra, Rohit

• 1986. “History of Dards and the Concept of Minaro Traditions among the Buddhist Dards in Ladakh,” In Relevant Research on Ladakh, eds., Detlef Kantowsky & Reinhard Sander. London : Weltforum Verlag, Koln.
• 1989. An Ethnography: The Buddhist Dards of Ladakh. Luxembourg: Skydie Brown International.
• 1989. The Religion of the Dards in Ladakh. Luxembourg: Skydie Brown International.

TrangaBellam (talk) 19:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

The Brokpa phenomenon

This 3D satellite image of at Kharmang in Baltistan, illustrates the Brokpa phenomenon. You see the reguar village spread out along the (Indus) valley floor. And there are other people occupying some level ground on hilltops, figuring out how to channel the water there and growing food. These are the people that the Baltis called "Brokpa" (highlander).

Almost all the Brokpa villages are perched on high ground like this, especially in areas where the valley floor doesn't exist at all (the river taking up the entire valley). The highest of these locations is Khalatse, where Rohit Vohra located a Brokpa fort and postulated that it was their original capital.

The traditional trade route between Baltistan and Ladakh short-circuited this entire section of the Indus valley between Marol and Khalatse, using the Suru Valley via Kargil instead. The present Highway 1 does the same. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2023 (UTC)