Talk:Brothers of Italy/Archives/2023/January

RfC: Ideologies in the Infobox

Which ideologies should be listed in the infobox?

• Options (alphabetically ordered): Anti-immigration, Conservatism, National conservatism, Nationalism, Nativism, Right-wing populism, Social conservatism, Ultranationalism. Vacant0 (talk) 12:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Survey

• In favor of listing in the infobox: Nationalism (as the main ideology, as the ideology most supported by the sources), National conservatism and Social conservatism (they could be summarized as Conservatism in the infobox) and Right-wing populism in the third place. Decidedly contrary to Ultranationalism, since these sources use the term in an absolutely inaccurate way: the ultranationalism "is an extreme form of nationalism in which a country asserts or maintains detrimental hegemony, supremacy, or other forms of control over other nations" (so absolutely nothing to do with the party we are talking).--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 16:26, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
• I agree with most of them but i would leave Conservatism, Anti-immigration & Nativism out since they are already part of the other ideologies Braganza (talk) 22:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
  • I would strongly support National conservatism, Nationalism and Right-wing populism and i would generally support Anti-immigration, Social conservatism and Ultranationalism too Braganza (talk) 15:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• I appreciate the current compromise version ("national conservatism" and "right-wing populism"), put forward by User:Davide King, however I would rather have only "conservatism" and "national conservatism". On the other proposals, I have to say that "anti-immigration"i is just a politicy not an ideology, "nationalism" and "nativism" are long shots, "social conservatism" (whish I would accept) is part of "conservatism" and "national conservatism", while "ultranationalism" is really a non-starter. --Checco (talk) 15:28, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• I'm in favor of including only nationalism and right-wing populism as these descriptions are mostly used by reliable sources and scholars. --Vacant0 (talk) 15:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

  After reading Davide King's detailed comment, I'd be fine with keeping the current compromise too, which is listing national conservatism and right-wing populism only. Vacant0 (talk) 11:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

• National conservatism and Right-wing populism are the party's main ideologies per Vacant0, though I'd have to agree with Yakme that Neo-fascism is also hard to ignore,1 since these are all academic books and not news sources but I'm fine with the current compromise. Both conservatism and nationalism are too redundant and generalized, especially when nationalism it is obviously used to mean (Right-wing) nationalism and/or (Neo-) nationalism, the former of which redirects to right-wing populism. As we write at "Nationalism" with inline references:

  "Nationalism can be combined with diverse political goals and ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism and right-wing populism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[4][16][17] In practice, nationalism is seen as positive or negative depending on its ideology and outcomes. Nationalism has been a feature of movements for freedom and justice, has been associated with cultural revivals,[8] and encourages pride in national achievements.[18] It has also been used to legitimize racial, ethnic, and religious divisions, suppress or attack minorities, and undermine human rights and democratic traditions.[11] Radical nationalism combined with racial hatred was a key factor in the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany.[19]"

  Anti-immigrant and nativism are either more political positions than ideology, just like Euroscepticism, or already covered by Right-wing populism. As the infobox is supposed to summarize, I support no more than three ideologies (proper ideology, not any political policy ending with -ism) and branches (e.g. national conservatism, social liberalism, etc.) over broad ideologies, unless we and sources can't agree on the proper label or the party is broad enough to justify it.2 More than the label itself, it matters more what sources meant by it, and for this party it makes more sense to link to right-wing populism/nationalism or even neo-nationalism, what those source mean when they refer to the party as 'nationalist', than "Nationalism", since the latter can include anyone from socialists to conservatives. Also what's the point of both Nationalism and Ultranationalism? We should summarize what reliable sources say and avoid redundancy, please. For all that, there's the lead and body.

1. Yes, the more recent is from 2021 and doesn't take their time in government (many governments in liberal democracy have had to moderate, so it's not surprising; just because the party has turned Italy into a one-party dictatorship doesn't automatically void what these scholars, published by the academic or mainstream press, have researched) but it goes back to at least 2015 — we're supposed to summarize a party's evolution or history ideologically, and at the very least we should keep the current footnote about this academic research.

2. Yes, this party, like any other party, has factions but I don't see reliable sources stopping from labelling it as 'national-conservative' and/or 'right-wing populist' as its main ideologies, which is what the parameter in the infobox asks us to list. It isn't like the Democratic Party in the United States. Davide King (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• Conservatism, Nationalism, and Populism. Just going by the hit counts from sources. National conservatism is a close call; I'd lean against as the hits are fewer, and we already have nationalism and conservatism. As all of these have thousands of hits, and the quality looks good too; i.e. Nationlism has NBC[1], WaPo[2], NYT[3]. Definitely opposed to anything whose hit count is in the hundreds without a terrific showing of quality, which I'm not seeing. Adoring nanny (talk) 16:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
• Mostly agree with Davide King. So National conservatism and Right-wing populism as per sources given. Yakme (talk) 08:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• I would maintain the ideologies currently shown, National conservatism (this definition includes both Nationalism and Conservatism, in my opinion) and Right-wing populism. I concur with Davide King's explanations. P1221 (talk) 11:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Agree with Davide King's general proposal, as in National conservatism and Right-wing populism should be the only ideologies listed. (NB, listing social conservatism and nationalism alongside national conservatism is completely redundant, so I oppose their inclusion in the Infobox. Also "anti-immigration" is a policy position, not an ideology.)--Autospark (talk) 17:05, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Sources

• Anti-immigration (Google Search 112 hits and 335 hits): Sirkeci, Castro, Sözen, 2018; BBC 2022; The Local, 2018; The Independent, 2022; NYT, 2018; Time, 2022
• Conservatism (Google Search 3,570 hits including terms such as "arch-conservative", "national-conservative" and "ultra-conservative"): Yahoo Finance, 2022; The Hill, 2022 (conservative); Financial Times, 2022 (arch-conservative)
• National conservatism (Google Search 1,260 hits): Szymańska, 2018; Segatti, Poletti, Vezzoni, 2015; Barisione, 2021; Politico, 2022; Euractiv, 2022; Euronews, 2022
• Nationalism (Google Search 6,390 hits): Berti, Loner, 2020; Thompson, 2022; Reuters, 2022; The Guardian, 2022; CNBC, 2022; Washington Post, 2022; The Telegraph, 2022
• Nativism (Google Search 59 hits): Time, 2022
• Populism (Google Search 6,150 hits majority comes from "far-right populist", including "populist" and "right-wing populist"): Lancet, 2022; Deutsche Welle, 2022; The Guardian, 2022; BBC, 2022; Euractiv, 2022
• Social conservatism: CSIS, 2018; Pirro, 2022
• Ultranationalism (Google Search 125 hits and 49 hits): EUObserver, 2021; France 24, 2019

Discussion

• @Scia Della Cometa and Braganza: If that is what you are in favor of, you should move the comments in #Survey above. See the #RfC: Neo-fascism in the Infobox (previous RfC) for example. This part should be used for hypothetical discussion. Vacant0 (talk) 23:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

  You are right, you can move the comments above under the section "Survey" for me. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 23:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

   Done Vacant0 (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)