Talk:Brunhild

What's Opera, Doc?

A "Brunnhilde-type character"? Unless it is explicitly stated that Bugs Bunny was playing the Brunhild from Norse mythology then this reference is tenuous if not inaccurate. For example, he could have been any of the Valkyrie, not specifically Brunhild, or simply a Viking maiden, so perhaps your piece of information would be better in the popular culture section on the general Valkyrie page, not Brunhild's. 80.43.12.231 23:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I only added the link in but I'll put the text back in and clarfiy it. It is Brunhulde (Fudd calls the disguised Bugs by that name) as is made clear from the What's Opera, Doc? entry itself: "Later, Elmer is stopped in his tracks at the sight of the beautiful Valkyrie, Brunhilde (Bugs in an obvious disguise). ... "Siegfried" and "Brunhilde" exchange endearments: "Oh Bwunhiww-de, you'wuh so wuv-wee!" " (Emperor 01:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC))

Read: Chuck Amok wherein the late Charles Jones of Warner Bros. explicitly describes Bugs Bunny as such. "Since we couldn't put the curves on Bugs, we put the curves on the horse." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.49.126 (talk) 22:22, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The Elmer Fudd line is specifically "Oh Bwunhilde, you'w so wuvwy!", and the song being played is Wagner. Probably the most popular depiction of her in popular culture today is Bugs Bunny from 1957. It's not just any Valkyrie, I'm putting it back. (I know I'm responding to a three year old comment, but I don't know why that isn't in the list)--Capnchicken (talk) 01:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The Fat Lady

The common expression, "It's not over till the fat lady sings," is a reference to the stereotypical physique of a Wagnerian soprano as Brünnhilde, singing the final aria.

Supposedly two guys, more at home at horse races or fights, found themselves at a performance of Gotterdämmerung. One asks, "how long do we hafta sit here?" The other replies, "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."

I imagine this expression originated in the first half of the 20th century. Perhaps it is a line from a movie, or it could have involved a couple of celebrities. It certainly belongs among the list of Popular Culture references. Monomoit (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Another item for the Popular Culture section - the"Broom Hilda" comic strip witch Radio Sharon (talk) 21:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain%27t_over_till_the_fat_lady_sings 2601:806:4301:C100:3509:1F79:2632:9F33 (talk) 23:17, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Hindarfjall in the Alps?

I can find no evidence that Hindarfjall is supposed to be located in the Alps, the main article does not mention this either. It seems rather unlikely for an Icelandic saga, so I removed it.—Austriacus (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Um, the Sagas are not only from Iceland! WTH? And since the Sagas are likely based off of a Queen in Spain, I fail to see the connection with Iceland? 2601:806:4301:C100:CD64:5EF1:AAF3:72D6 (talk) 03:20, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a redirect here from the spelling Broomhilder. It took me ages to find this page

Thoughts!--122.111.254.165 (talk) 16:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Which sources are there using this spelling to mean Brynhildr? If you can find one, you can create the redirect instantly. ♆ CUSH ♆ 18:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• mainly my own brain--122.111.254.165 (talk) 18:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

More spelling

The German Nibelungenlied has Brunhild or Brunhilde. [1] . The diaresis ü would be read as a separate letter in German, not a long oo. So where does the ü come from? 99.11.160.111 (talk) 07:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

*Umlaut2601:806:4301:C100:CD64:5EF1:AAF3:72D6 (talk) 03:21, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 22 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that "Brunhild" is the more common form in English. Cúchullain ^t/c 17:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

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Brynhildr → Brunhild – This figure has a common name in English, Brunhild. The current name is exclusive to the Scandinavian tradition and does not follow the way that other names from the Nibelungen saga are transcribed: cf. Sigurd, Gudrun. In other cases the -r is missing. Brunhild also has the advantage of being applicable to both the German and the Scandinavian character. Ermenrich (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Alternatively, Brunhilda would also be an English common name.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose consistency with other Scandinavian heroes. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• She's not actually a purely Scandinavian hero, however, and as I note, her current name is not consistent with the other Scandinavian heroes. To be consistent it would have to be at least Sigurdr if not Sigurðr and probably Guðrun as well. Similarly, Odin is not listed as Óðinn.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I mean that the others aren't specifically German as I believe the proposal is, minus umlaut. Brunhilda or Brunhilde would be better if we're trying to make the name English. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that this form is German - it's never used there. Brunhild, however, is used in English (see Pfold's vote and my comments below).--Ermenrich (talk) 13:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support, obviously.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

We don't normally support own nom. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support per WP:USEENGLISH and WP:RECOGNIZABLE. And you both can't really make WP:CONSISTENCY arguments that contradict each other. I think Ermenrich's analysis is more pertinent in this case, and it may even be grounds to move some other articles away from Norse/Icelandic names if they are not the most commonly used in English-language sources.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

In most instances, the most commonly used form in English sources will be the Old Norse form. This is because the mountains of English scholarship on these topics dominate whatever pop culture mentions may exist, and scholars tend to stick to Old Norse forms due to the various problems that arise with attempts at ‘anglicising’ them. Where that’s not the case — such as Odin, Thor, and so o on — the articles are already at the most common English language use. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support — This form avoids choosing between German and Scandivaian forms. Britannica uses Brunhild. Other English reference works? --Pfold (talk) 08:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Columbia Encyclopedia also has Brunhild. So does apparently World Book. It's probably also worth noting that the person on whom this Brunhild was based, Brunhilda of Austrasia, is called Brunhild on this Encyclopedia even though her recorded name is something like Brunichildis. Most sources I've seen for her just call her Brunhild in Egnlish though.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Here's also the entry from The Encyclopedia of Women in the Middle Ages, which has both the Frankish and legendary Brunhild under this name. Bizarrely, it only mentions the German story but calls Siegfried Sigurd. The Encyclopedia of Medieval Literature uses Brunhild in its discussion of the Volsunga Saga though.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Also Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature uses Brunhild. It lists Brynhild as a possible variant, but not Brynhildr. Also Encyclopedia Americana.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:23, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Neutral. This entity is one of the few figures from Norse myth who have a significant presence in modern western popular culture over the last century (the situation is very different now). It's common to encounter the anglicisation Brunhild in pop culture. The figure also hasn't received a ton of discussion in academic circles. That said, the current state of this article is very poor, and we need a section discussing how all of these forms connect. This would provide greater insight into the body of scholarly work surrounding the figure, likely having some influence on what name we should go with here. Note that some of the most important resources in ancient Germanic studies are not available online, such as Simek's handbook. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Improvements to Article

As @Bloodofox: mentioned in the move discussion above, this article is in bad shape. I'd like to start improving it, as well as the other articles on the Nibelungen tradition. I've already started on Sigurd, but I'm much more familiar with the German material than the Scandinavian. My general plan for Sigurd as well as this article is to creates sections on 1) Etymology 2) Origins 3) Development of the tradition 4) German traditions 5) Scandinavian traditions 6) modern reception. As with the Sigurd article, this may involve replacing the entire current text. I'm eager for any help.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs to be completely rewritten. However, I recommend a different structure: 1) etymology 2) attestations 3) scholarly reception 4) modern influence. See, for example, valkyrie. This keeps things nice and neat while reducing the likelihood of editorializing or undue emphasis on a particular theory. It also allows for room to grow. I'll be glad to help. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Very glad to hear that! Please do have a look at my changes to the Sigurd article! Everything up through "Development of the tradition" has been added by me. I'm currently struggling to force myself to deal with the sections on individual stories (which I mostly plan to delete and replace in another section).--Ermenrich (talk) 16:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Deleting pop culture

Is there consensus for deleting the section on Brunhild in pop culture? As it is its just a list of random facts. I'm not sure there are many reliable sources about the reception of Brunhild outside of Wagner, otherwise I'd suggest replacing it with a section on reception.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:24, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Most of these, if not all, seem to be inspired specifically by Wagner's work rather than the medieval tales, so they are part of a larger topic of Wagner reception and so do not belong here.--Pfold (talk) 17:55, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Deleting. I've found a few sources that can at least provide a short section on Brunhild-reception. I intend to delete the Wagner section as well - a bit of info on her role there can be given in the modern reception section.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)