Talk:Budapest

Climate

It is not subtropical, but humid continental. 2A00:801:400:B024:CCFB:7494:1F1A:1B18 (talk) 20:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

It used to be, in pre-industrial times, but now its coldest month is 1.4 degrees C, making it humid subtropical. A similar thing has happened to many cities, New York City for example. Uness232 (talk) 21:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

No… coldest month average is below 0! דולב חולב (talk) 00:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

And it’s not how it works. Not every continental place with winters not as cold as before, is suddenly Humid subtropical like Sydney Australia.

and if the winters are not cold enough but summers are still not too hot then it would be oceanic and not Humid subtropical! דולב חולב (talk) 00:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

"No… coldest month average is below 0!" Where? Definitely not in the climate chart.

It also definitely is how it works. On Wikipedia, it is not up to me what a city's climate is. If I was to make a climate classification, I would personally never call Budapest "humid subtropical", but WP:RS on the Köppen classification do; and on Wikipedia we care about reliable sources, not about editor opinion. The most recent common standard for Köppen thresholds, that of Beck et. al, defines a subtropical climate (C[s/f/w]a) as a climate that has:

• Its coldest month averaging between 0C and 18C (sometimes -3C is also used, though this would put Budapest deeper into the subtropical zone anyway).
• At least 3 months averaging above 10C.
• At least one month averaging above 22C.

Budapest satisfies all three, and therefore it is subtropical per the Köppen classification. An oceanic climate would have had summers below 22C, and a continental climate would have had winters below freezing. Uness232 (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Areas of the world with subtropical climates

Hi, I really do not understand why would be Budapest is subtropical??? The map in the parent article does not support that claim. I am Hungarian and Hungary is clearly not a subtropical country but a continental one. Sorry, but nobody know in Hungary, that Hungary would be "subtropical"

Hungarian Wiki:

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarország#Éghajlat

"Hungary is located on the border of four climate zones, its weather is shaped by the moist continental air masses in the east, the oceanic air masses in the west, the arctic air masses in the north and the south-southwest Mediterranean influence. The average annual temperature is 8–11 °C, with a relatively high fluctuation of 20–25 °C. The average temperature is the lowest in January, 0 – -4 °C, and the highest in July, 18–22 °C."

Areas of the world that feature a continental climate, according to Köppen

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarország_éghajlata

"It is advisable to examine Hungary's climate in the context of its immediate natural environment, the Carpathian Basin. The climate of this region is determined by the fact that it is located at the intersection of three major European climate areas - continental, oceanic and Mediterranean. The country's climate can best be characterized as humid continental."

Hungary and Budapest is clearly continental, we need to keep the consistency between articles: Continental climate OrionNimrod (talk) 10:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The map on the subtropics article is based on the intersection of Troll-Paffen and Köppen climate classifications; and therefore is also not best practice as borderline WP:OR.

However, much more importantly; "subtropical" does not have one definition, and has different boundaries based on climate classification. The standard in the most commonly used Köppen classification is the one I've described above. In this definition, and with the most current climate data (which the Beck et. al. map does not use), Budapest is humid subtropical.

I don't know what classification Hungarian Wikipedia uses, but most iterations of Trewartha (the second most popular climate classification) would by now also consider Budapest oceanic, not continental.

It's not by my choice that this is how it is. We follow sources; and the most popular climate classification is Köppen. I've made calls to diversify climate classifications over at Talk: Humid subtropical climate to no avail, but whatever we do has to be sourced by something, and ideally a systematic climate classification. I've sort of danced around this in the Climate of Istanbul article I've created by summarizing how different climate classifications conflict, maybe something similar can be done in more pages.

However, it is most definitely not appropriate to use personal opinion (or old [for the latter] or poorly made [for the former] maps) as sources for climate classification. Uness232 (talk) 12:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry but no any Hungarian know or will say that Hungary is subtropical, it is very fringe theory. OrionNimrod (talk) 13:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but calling the Köppen climate classification a "fringe theory" is nonsensical. It is by far the most commonly used climate classification internationally. If it makes any difference, no one from NYC or Milan would accept a humid subtropical designation for their city either, but Köppen classifies them this way; and while I certainly have my problems with the status quo on Köppen, it is standardized, common, and enjoys use in academic sources. If you want to add another climate classification, you're very welcome to. Uness232 (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Hungarian meteroglogical service:

https://www.met.hu/en/eghajlat/magyarorszag_eghajlata/altalanos_eghajlati_jellemzes/altalanos_leiras/

"Hungary lies between 45°45' and 48°35' north latitude, roughly halfway between the Equator and the North Pole, in the temperate zone according to the solar climate classification. The climate of Hungary is very variable as it is equally affected by the high-moisture oceanic air masses with more balanced temperature, the fundamentally dry continental air masses with extreme temperature fluctuations, and the mild, high humidity air masses coming from the Mediterranean Sea. In summer, most of the air masses (60-70%) are of marine origin, whereas during the cold winter months, continental air masses are more dominant. The northwest-southeast orientation of the distribution of meteorological elements reflects the influence of the Atlantic Ocean to the northwest and the Mediterranean Sea to the southeast."

"Hungary's climate can be classified according to two prominent global climate classification systems. Based on the Köppen classification, a substantial part of the country falls under the Cfa warm-temperate climate zone characterized by a uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type. Conversely, according to the Trewartha classification, Hungary is classified under the continental climate type, characterized by long warm seasons. These climate classification systems are inadequate in demonstrating the climatic variations among different regions in Hungary. To address this, György Péczely developed a method specifically applicable to Hungary that categorizes the heat and water supply of regions based on the average temperature during the vegetation period and the aridity index. The resulted climatic zones arise from the combined application of the two criteria. According to the Péczely classification, most of Hungary falls into the warm-dry category. The warm-dry regions are generally surrounded by warm and moderately warm zones (Figure 1), while moderately cool and cool regions can be found only in high-altitude areas. The Bükk Plateau is the only area with cool-wet climatic conditions."

Official Hungarian wesbite by Hungarian Tourism agency:

https://visithungary.com

https://csodasmagyarorszag.hu/eghajlat

"Hungary lies in the temperate zone, its climate is very variable. One of the main reasons for variability is that the oceanic climate with more balanced temperature and precipitation, the continental climate with extreme temperatures and little precipitation, and the Mediterranean climate, which is dry in summer and rainy in winter, all have an effect. Any of these climate types can become dominant for a longer or shorter time."

An updated Köppen–Geiger climate map

I see Köppen climate classification and Hungary is Dfa and Dfb in the map = Humid continental climate

Humid subtropical climate is Cfa and Cwa is not Hungary. So I really do not understand what do you see on the map.

Natgeo, Britannica,

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/koppen-climate-classification-system/

https://www.britannica.com/science/Koppen-climate-classification

Scientific journal use the same Köppen map:

https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2018214

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/figures/1

https://climate-adapt.eea.europa.eu/en/countries-regions/countries/hungary The European Climate Adaptation Platform Climate-ADAPT is a partnership between the European Commission and the European Environment Agency.

"Hungary has a moderate climate with a significant continental influence " OrionNimrod (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how to respond to this at this point. Obviously emic classifications do not view Hungary as subtropical, and Köppen really only views the warmer parts as subtropical. But you cite a source from the Hungarian Meteorological service, the only text-source here mentioning Köppen --

Hungary's climate can be classified according to two prominent global climate classification systems. Based on the Köppen classification, a substantial part of the country falls under the Cfa warm-temperate climate zone characterized by a uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type. Conversely, according to the Trewartha classification, Hungary is classified under the continental climate type, characterized by long warm seasons.

Cfa is humid subtropical; this text does not support your point. The latter text you emphasized is Trewartha (note the "conversely"), in which Hungary is oceanic in Budapest and other warmer places, and continental otherwise.

As far as the Köppen map is concerned, by the way, we use weatherboxes, not maps to determine city climate on Wikipedia, as weatherboxes tend to be more recent and accurate. According to the weatherbox, Budapest is humid subtropical per Köppen and oceanic per Trewartha. To see how we determine climate using weatherboxes, see Köppen climate classification, or Trewartha climate classification.

If you want to add Budapest's class per Trewartha (i.e "Budapest is humid subtropical according to Köppen, and oceanic according to Trewartha" or similar), you are, again, very welcome to do so. But we're not removing the most common climate classification because it does not match local perceptions of climate. Uness232 (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

As you can there are many Köppen maps in many reliable website and Hungary is Dfa and Dfb.

Trewartha climate classification here Hungary also Dc: Temperate Continental OrionNimrod (talk) 14:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let's do the math, because this is slowly becoming a WP:HEAR issue. I've already told you why we tend not to use maps when weather station data is available. But what we can do is calculate in detail using station data and the criteria given by Beck et. al.

For our first letter, we have to first establish that the area is not arid (B), and with 532mm of precipitation, the climate is above the aridity threshold for this temperature. That gets rid of B. For A, C, D, E we have to look at temperature. It is not A, as the coldest month is below 18C. It is not E, because its warmest month is above 10C. Therefore it can only be C or D. With a January temperature of 1.4C, the city stays above the freezing mark and therefore is considered C.

For the second letter, we have to look at precipitation. It can not be s, as its dry season is not in summer. It can not be w, as it does not have 10 times more precipitation in its wettest month than its driest month. Therefore it has to be f.

For our last letter, we have to look at summer temperature. The city has 7 months of temperatures above 10C, so c is out. The warmest month is warmer than 22C, so b is also out. The weather station provided here is therefore Cfa, a humid subtropical climate.

There are scenarios in which Trewartha would classify Budapest as continental, but only if we use less common (2/4C) thresholds for continental climates. As far as I am aware this is only done for countries further away from the ocean than Hungary (Turkey uses 2C, for example). Using the most common threshold, 0C, Budapest is oceanic. Uness232 (talk) 15:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

NYC and Milan are far wetter than Budapest.

550mm for a subtropical climate, means

cold semi arid climate דולב חולב (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Please read Köppen climate classification. The precipitation requirement for semi-arid is 20 times the average temperature + a number depending on how the precipitation is organized; for Budapest this would be 252 + 140, so 392. The city is not semi-arid according to Köppen no matter its temperature zone. Uness232 (talk) 22:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

550mm in subtropical location is not necessarily semi-arid, see locations with Mediterranean climate such as Bari.PAper GOL (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you דולב חולב (talk) 21:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Cold clear sky winters and warmer wet summers. Definitely continental דולב חולב (talk) 21:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

First of all, none of these things are criteria in the Köppen climate classification. Köppen cares about thresholds and such, not airmass patterns or descriptive statements. The city's coldest month is 1.4C. The Köppen threshold for D (continental) is 0C; therefore Budapest is C, not D. As its warmest month is above 22C, it is Cfa not Cfb, so a humid subtropical climate. End of discussion per the sources I provided.

Furthermore, the descriptive statement that you provide is inaccurate. Winters in Budapest are quite cloudy; 52 hours a month is less than 1/5th of possible sunshine for December, and is equal in hours to London, despite the latter city's more northerly latitude. Uness232 (talk) 23:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Winter Budapest images, is this the "subtropical"?

https://budapestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/20210112142832-378df11e-800x533.jpg

https://sportagvalaszto.hu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/330-1518760056.jpg

https://cdn.nwmgroups.hu/s/img/i/1704/20170419havazas-hoeses-budapest-ho10.jpg?w=800&h=534&t=5

https://st4.depositphotos.com/6121818/24318/i/1600/depositphotos_243182576-stock-photo-budapest-hungary-aerial-view-snowy.jpg

https://s.24.hu/app/uploads/2015/02/havazas-budapesten-1024x665.jpg

https://nlc.p3k.hu/uploads/2021/01/d_sos20191202012-1.jpg

https://m.blog.hu/pr/prusi/image/2013-01-12%20nagy%20havazas/20130112_illusztracio_5.jpg

https://kep.cdn.indexvas.hu/welove-media/15/emlekek-arrol-a-bizonyos-1987-es-budapesti-hideg-telrol.exact1980w.jpg OrionNimrod (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Not by how I would personally define it, absolutely not. But by the Köppen climate classification, Budapest is absolutely subtropical, no matter how snowy it is. I could also find many photos of NYC, Milan and many other cities under 30cm/a foot of snowfall, and yet they are all considered humid subtropical by Köppen. Please understand that it is not up to us what Köppen zone a city is in, and that Köppen is the most commonly used climate classification. Other classifications are also welcome of course, but Köppen should stay. Uness232 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

In the Köppen map Hungary is clealry Dfa and Dfb = humid continental. I am not blind. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

We use weatherboxes, not maps to talk about city climates on Wikipedia. So please, you have the Beck et. al. resource; demonstrate to me how this weatherbox could be interpreted as Dfa/Dfb. Uness232 (talk) 18:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

In the article, your Köppen ref is a map where Hungary is Dfb: The Beck link does not say any "subtropical" thing. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you know how Köppen types are calculated? Uness232 (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I know what I am seeing in the map what is the provided reference in the article. And the provided ref, the image, where Hungary is blue Dfb does not support the "subtropical" text. OrionNimrod (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

As I pointed out to you repeatedly: because the maps are made with older data and do not represent small scale phenomena (like urban heat islands, which Budapest has), using weatherboxes to override maps is standard practice on Wikipedia. We use the rules provided by the map sources (which are consistent per source if not per classification), not the map itself, to determine climate types; I have done that exact thing on this talk page. You can use the rules yourself to verify if you wish.

I am also tempted to notify Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather for others to comment on the issue, if you would prefer that. Uness232 (talk) 21:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Your marked reference is only that map image, and you said that your reference is not good to represent Hungary, but you need to override your ref? So you claim that you provide sa wrong ref? So you say Budapest is subtropical, but Hungary outside Budapest is continental? Because your referenced map does not show those “subtropical” details? I really do not understand, and still I say no any local resident will confirm that Budapest would be “subtropical”. OrionNimrod (talk) 21:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You are right that the reference on the page is insufficient, but not becuase it's a map, it's a self-reference (from Wikipedia to Wikipedia). I did not realize this was the case, I was simply talking about standard practice. I will replace it with an actual source now (though I've given you this source on the talk page numerous times).

I think part of the problem is that -- and excuse my educated guess/assumption here -- you do not know how the Köppen classification works. Maps of the classification are only a result of the rules being applied in a certain resolution and climate normal, and are drawn exclusively using the rules I provided to you with the Beck source. According to those rules the weather station given in the article is Cfa, which is most often called humid subtropical. Uness232 (talk) 22:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Hungary is Dfa and Dfb

Hi, your new ref also does not say Hungary would be "humid subtropical" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1 I think we need follow the sources not by sourceless POV speculative calculations Wikipedia:No original research.

In the Köpper map Hungary is clearly Dfb = continental, I can say again I am not blind

Translated Hungarian Wiki: I think the local Hungarian people know better the local climate than any fringe tropical speculations, they claim: continental

https://hu-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Magyarország_éghajlata?_x_tr_sl=hu&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=hu&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Here the Cf: Subtropical Humid is very very far from Hungary and Hungary is Dc: Temperate Continental: Trewartha climate classification

It is very strange that you say Bratislava is "subtropical" but Vienna just from only 50km!!! from Bratislava is not subtropical!

I also did not find on any Hungarian website that Hungary would be "subtropical", please provide any modern reliable academic sources which claim that "Hungary is subtropical".

You cannot compare New York with Hungary, New York locates in a different continent at the sea.

This user with no history added recently Budapest to the "subtropical" section

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Köppen_climate_classification&diff=prev&oldid=1141318523 OrionNimrod (talk) 11:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The source does indeed claim that this weather station alluded to in the article would be humid subtropical, which is indicated in the Köppen classification by the letters Cfa. You will find that the weather station fulfills the criteria for Cfa. Please do the calculations, and if you are unable to, please have the humility to not call my standard practice calculations "speculative POV" (also, POV of what exactly?).

The maps say what they say because of different (almost exclusively older) climate normals. Older climate normals would put many cities which are humid subtropical now into the hot-summer humid continental zone. There's also another problem of resolution; maps can only represent a fixed amount of detail.

What "the local Hungarian people" say is irrelevant; "the local New Yorkers" around me say that NYC should not be in the same climate zone as Atlanta (and I'd agree with them), but Köppen disagrees. Also subtropical does not mean tropical; as you claim at "fringe tropical speculations".

Yes, Bratislava is barely humid subtropical (in fact it's less than 0.1C away from being oceanic) per Köppen and most of Vienna is not (though some areas of the Innere Stadt are), but your argument is fallacious. Üsküdar, in southern Istanbul, is humid subtropical, yet less than 30km away is Sarıyer, an oceanic district. In most cases Köppen does not allow for zone fluidity; the borders have to be somewhere.

At this point I see no other solution other than opening a discussion at the Weather WikiProject, calling interested editors to discuss our dispute. Uness232 (talk) 12:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Clear skies are for Beijing, not Budapest with less than 90 hours of sunshine in January.PAper GOL (talk) 19:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

According to 1991-2020 normals Budapest has no monthly daily mean below freezing. So not continental in Koppen classification nor Trewartha.

Cfa classification means the warmest month averages above 22, which is the case for Budapest and Bratislava and Lyon.

Some scientists call Cfa classification Humid Subtropical but not Koppen(nor Hungarian meteo service I suppose).PAper GOL (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

But this article you referred to does not state that Budapest is continental. It shows smaller cities having Df climate.PAper GOL (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I also do not agree with humid subtropical climate! Also because the article states that is not a Köppen expression ( "However, while SOME climatologists have opted to describe this climate type as a "humid subtropical climate", Köppen himself never used this term." There are no eight months above 10 C average. And also because the characteristics describes in that article not covers the situation. Characteristics described in Continental climate fits best. Also there is a question by the definition:

• Dfa = Hot-summer humid continental climate; coldest month averaging below 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F)), at least one month's average temperature above 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled).

Why there are different words for coldest month average, and for the maximum, saying at coldest average and at least one month with average. I think it means you should select the coldest month average every year, and then make an average for the period, and it should not be understand 1 coldest specific month avearge in the period. In Budapest year by year the coldest month is different, can be December, January, February.

Please also see the section Continental_climate#Neighboring climates. I think man made microlimates in cities with lot of stone surfaces should also be considered, and should be corrected with the neighboring climates, otherwise it can show very different values depending on the place of the probes within even 100 metres. JSoos (talk) 14:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hungary map of Köppen climate classification.

Parent article: Climate of Hungary: continental. Again most Dfa and Dfb. OrionNimrod (talk) 14:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON. You've made your point that maps (which are all but one from one source) show something different and I explained why that would be. Uness232 (talk) 14:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The map does not take late 2010s into account which we’re among the warmest years on record.

this why it is not currently continental. PAper GOL (talk) 18:59, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Humid subtropical is not originally a Köppen expression, but is commonly used with Köppen; in fact the entire article humid subtropical climate defines the climate based on Köppen: see the discussion on Talk:humid subtropical climate for more on that.

Characteristics described in Continental climate fits best.

Read WP:OR. Our opinion does not matter.

Why there are different words for coldest month average, and for the maximum, saying at coldest average and at least one month with average. I think it means you should select the coldest month average every year, and then make an average for the period, and it should not be understand 1 coldest specific month avearge in the period. In Budapest year by year the coldest month is different, can be December, January, February.

These all mean the same thing; the month with the coldest mean temperature. No source that I know defines the Köppen zones with the "coldest month of each year", neither have I seen any climatologist work with this. In fact most climate charts do not even mention such data.

I think man made microlimates in cities with lot of stone surfaces should also be considered, and should be corrected with the neighboring climates, otherwise it can show very different values depending on the place of the probes within even 100 metres

Yes! That's also one reason why the map shows humid continental, the humid subtropical climate near Budapest is an urban heat island. NYC has the same phenomenon, and it has also shifted climate zones. See Climate of New York City. Uness232 (talk) 14:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

If our opinion does not matter, could you show me any modern reliable academic source which claim "Hungary is subtropical"? OrionNimrod (talk) 15:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"These all mean the same thing": That is your opinion, and I have different. Also it is WP:OR to categorize cities with methods based on average temperature solely, while there are other methods showing different values, and also because Köppen grades were not made for such little areas, and not at all for man made environments! Here is an academic paper showing that only temperature data can not be a good method (Köppen only say "no dry season"), and all other method not describes it as "humid". You may not agree with me, but please cite any expert on meteorolgy who says Budapest is "humid subtropcal" except your own calculation on a table, which does not necessarily contains true data, see offical average values here: [1] (1. táblázat) JSoos (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Well most of Hungary is not subtropical, but the weather data provided here is humid subtropical according to the official rules of Köppen.

"These all mean the same thing": That is your opinion, and I have different.

I have never in my life seen climate data with a data point of "coldest month in an average year". It's just not something we've ever used on Wikipedia, which would entail redoing every climate class on this encyclopedia. Kottek also defines Tmin this way: The key to the main climates, characterized by the first two letters of the classification, is described in Tab. 1. The annual mean near-surface (2 m) temperature is de- noted by Tann and the monthly mean temperatures of the warmest and coldest months by Tmax and Tmin, respectively.

Also you claim that it is WP:OR to use the Köppen climate classification with average temperatures? That is the only way to use Köppen, so that would mean that we'd just have to stop using Köppen, which wouldn't just affect Budapest. Also where is that academic paper? I don't see it here.

About the accuracy of the data, you can change the values if you find your source to be more accurate, but with an average January temperature of 0C exactly the lede should then read: "Budapest has a borderline humid continental and humid subtropical climate." as it is right on the threshold. Uness232 (talk) 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I ask again already many times, please provide us any modern reliable academic source which clearly say "Hungary is subtropical"? OrionNimrod (talk) 16:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

While I believe a climate chart and Köppen rules to be enough sourcing... even your own source says this. Met.hu does not use the exact word subtropical [2], but it very clearly states that Cfa climate exists in Hungary.

In English-language Wikipedia, it was decided (years ago at this point), that the most WP:COMMONNAME for Cfa in Köppen-related literature is "humid subtropical climate". If you want to claim that a different phrase needs to be used, take that to Talk: Humid subtropical climate, not here. Uness232 (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

No it is not a common name. As I cited SOME use it, but even not by Köppen. That is why I rewrote it in the article to the version what is in the cited source says C: Temperate fa, fb Hot summer, Warm summer. No any conclusion on humidity. JSoos (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"Humid" here refers to high precipitation, a la Holdridge life zones. If humid subtropical is not the most common name; start a discussion on the parent article first. The consensus at this point is that it is and that's why the article is named that way. Uness232 (talk) 17:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

No, Because it is called temperate rather than subtropical in sources(as Cfa is sometimes called temperate than subtropical).PAper GOL (talk) 19:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

That is the main controversy: you are citing temperature data definitions then you are making conclusion on humidity. (And naming it a way which was not used by Köppen). Köppen can be used of course, but cant be used to make accurate categorization on humidity. Also there is no any proof that Köppen is a good method to categorize cities with microclimate. JSoos (talk) 16:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I also see Hungary is Dfa and Dfb according to the Köppen maps, why should we ingore the colors? (I see just very minor areas with different color, even majority of Budapest is Dfb and Dfa in those maps. OrionNimrod (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Because the maps are made with older climate normals and have a fixed resolution unlike weather stations which represent a spot, as I've told you many times. WP:LISTEN. Uness232 (talk) 17:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Köppen is the most common climate classification. It is used worldwide in reliable sources, and is used in other cities with microclimates (which is all large cities). We are not looking for proof; we are looking for reliable sources, which use Köppen. Uness232 (talk) 17:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"Budapest has a borderline humid continental and humid subtropical climate." is a PUSHPOV you wrote in to

that article, so it is not really a good argument. JSoos (talk) 16:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

You are not assuming good faith. I am tired by the constant accusations, and this arguing style. You have your edit, I will not revert despite the fact that edits like these should wait until consensus is established. I have notified WikiProjects and article talk pages, maybe they can chime in. Uness232 (talk) 16:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I raised the question here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hungary#Climate of Hungary and here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hungary#Climate of Hungary

I think it is not a "bad faith" as a local Hungarian person do not understand why Hungary would be a "subtropical" country. Come to Hungary, ask people about this, they will laughing. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It is assuming bad faith to assume I am POV-pushing for something so far away from ideological/contentious POVs. Uness232 (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no such consensus you are referring. Or please show it where is it written. There is an article which is about the Humid subtropical climate and it states that Cfa CAN BE called such or as well as "Warm temperate climat" this expression is even bolded in the lead. Also it cites the the expression had an other criteria 8 monts over averag 10 C which is not true for Bp. Also not true that it is between "latitudes 25° and 40°". Also not true that it is so far in the mainlad from coast as it is possible in chine or USA. Also you are pushin POV on its talkpage that the page is "intended to be a Koppen page" and no others has the same opinion. JSoos (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I see this is a Köppen map from 2023, indeed in that map I see Hungary in Dfa and Cfa (climate change?) https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41597-023-02549-6/MediaObjects/41597_2023_2549_Fig1_HTML.png?as=webp

Uness232 first referenced the self Wiki link to the Köppen map File:Köppen-Geiger Climate Classification Map.png as reference. I said I see Dfa and Dfb, then Uness232 said the map is wrong, and he referenced that chart https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1. But still I cannot see on that reference "humid subtropical" term. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Budapest, city with 2 million people also very big with many different weathers, for example Buda has mountains and Pest is flat, Buda is always more cold than Pest. (personal experience) OrionNimrod (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hungarian wiki about Budapest climate: [3] OrionNimrod (talk) 17:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hungarian wiki does not matter for English wiki. Sources do. Let's move to the WikiProject if we started a conversation there as well. Uness232 (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Could you answer? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1. I cannot see "humid subtropical" term. So yours source does not support your claim. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I answered on the WikiProject. Uness232 (talk) 17:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@JSoos You are mixing me up with the person I was arguing with. I argued for greater climate classification diversity. Uness232 (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Uness232 sent me the third source which does not support his claim https://www.britannica.com/science/humid-subtropical-climate "This climate type is found on the eastern sides of the continents between 20° and 35° N and S latitude." Budapest is at 47° "The coldest month is usually quite mild (5–12 °C [41–54 °F])" This is also not true for Hungary, Hungary is cold in the winter. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

First of all, why are you leaping back and forth between the two discussion venues? Second of all, most Cfa climates are in that range; and more of them used to be before global warming. Climate types in Köppen are not determined by latitude. What Britannica clearly states is that Cfa is to be termed humid subtropical. Uness232 (talk) 18:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Humid subtropical climate this article contradicts Brtiannica. "Köppen himself never used this term. The humid subtropical climate classification was officially created under the Trewartha climate classification." OrionNimrod (talk) 18:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

No it does not. Köppen created a climate class called "humid temperate climate with hot summers", but calling that climate class (Cfa) by humid subtropical has become more common than the original name. Uness232 (talk) 18:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Usually also does not mean always. Tampa is humid subtropical; has winters of around 16C. Similarly, Budapest now has a winter mean of 1C; in the range of humid subtropical. Uness232 (talk) 18:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Köppen:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207062/

https://hess.copernicus.org/articles/11/1633/2007/hess-11-1633-2007.pdf

I cannot see the "subtropical" term. Cfa = temperate, without dry season, hot summer. If we refer Köppen we should use the proper Köppen term. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I cannot see the "subtropical" term. Cfa = temperate, without dry season, hot summer. If we refer Köppen we should use the proper Köppen term.

It depends on the source of course. But most equate Cfa with humid subtropical. See [4][5] for example.

You can argue about that further, that's unrelated to Budapest's specific case. Take that to Humid subtropical climate; as Cfa climates are exclusively called humid subtropical on Wikipedia (see New York City, Tokyo, Trieste, Washington DC and many more), you would need to argue for a general change. For now, can we agree on the fact that Budapest is now Cfa, and that we should call Cfa humid subtropical climate unless/until you get a new consensus on Talk: Humid subtropical climate? Uness232 (talk) 18:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Where do you see Budapest is Cfa? I can see just very mixed maps. OrionNimrod (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Köppen uses thresholds and mutually exclusive rules, as you've seen in the Beck et. al. source. Maps are not used to determine Köppen zones; Köppen zones are determined straight from the mean temperature and precipitation sections in climate data (in this case the weatherbox on the article), which are then used to create maps. The process (that I'm copying from earlier) was as such:

For our first letter, we have to first establish that the area is not arid (B), and with 532mm of precipitation, the climate is above the aridity threshold for this temperature. That gets rid of B.

For A, C, D, E we have to look at temperature. It is not A, as the coldest month is below 18C. It is not E, because its warmest month is above 10C. Therefore it can only be C or D. With a January temperature of 1.4C, the city stays above the freezing mark and therefore is considered C.

For the second letter, we have to look at precipitation. It can not be s, as its dry season is not in summer. It can not be w, as it does not have 10 times more precipitation in its wettest month than its driest month. Therefore it has to be f.

For our last letter, we have to look at summer temperature. The city has 7 months of temperatures above 10C, so c is out. The warmest month is warmer than 22C, so b is also out. The weather station provided here is therefore Cfa.

You can verify this process using the source if you want. Uness232 (talk) 19:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I wrote a letter to the Hungarian meterology service, they answered:

As we also write on our website, we do not use the Köppen categorization very much, because the country falls roughly into one category. At the same time, it is understandable that in a worldwide comparison this has a right to exist. I don't remember exactly where the classification on our website comes from, but based on other calculations - made by meteorologists - Cf is typical for Hungary, the 3rd letter is more b and not a, as we wrote it. I am sending it as an attachment, e.g. a Péczely Gy. Climatology. National Textbook Publisher, Budapest, the category found in the book, and 2 pieces of literature written by the staff of the ELTE Department of Meteorology: https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/joc.6859 and https://ttk.elte.hu/dstore/document/856/book.pdf Since your questions aroused our curiosity, in the near future we will also calculate the Köppen categories for the period 1991-2020 for the territory of Hungary based on our grid point database created using the measurements of HungaroMet (former OMSZ). OrionNimrod (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

2020 modern academic source about Hungary: https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/joc.6859 The most frequent climate type according to the Köppen method is Cfb. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:58, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

There are parts of Hungary that are Cfb, especially if you use the -3C isotherm for C and D climates. However, look at the rule for "b" (warm summer) in the Köppen sources provided -- for simplicity's sake let's use Beck, but this is a highly standard rule that exists in Peel, Kriticos, etc. The rule for b is the hottest month averaging below 22C. Look at the weatherbox; the July average is 23C. Therefore the third letter has to be "a".

In terms of phrasing, as I've told you before; we call the Cfa zone humid subtropical on Wikipedia, with nearly no exceptions (see the example cities I provided to you above). You may want to change that, but we can not do that just for Budapest; please take that dispute away from here and to Talk: Humid subtropical climate. In fact, if you agree to let that part of the dispute go temporarily and focus on whether Budapest has a Cfa climate, I can start the discussion over there instead.

By the way, please see WP:QUO: "To eliminate the risk of an edit war, do not revert away from the status quo ante bellum during a dispute discussion." The stable version (as in before the dispute) was humid subtropical, correct or not. You should not change this before the dispute is over. Uness232 (talk) 12:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Then this is an arbitrary naming refering to Köppen, because Köppen does not use "humid subtropical" term. Why should we add this nonsense name in the Budapest article? OrionNimrod (talk) 14:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not arbitrary (though I understand why you don't think it is ideal). As I've shown you many times (look at the links I've shown you above), plenty of reliable sources refer to Köppen's Cfa as "humid subtropical", and we adopt (and have adopted for years) this scheme in the humid subtropical climate article. If you want to change that, go to Talk: Humid subtropical climate; we can not simply change a name for Budapest and leave it humid subtropical for equally cold-winter Cfa-class cities across the globe; that would seriously harm readability and consistency.

This is a genuine problem in this argument. I explain stuff that has been standard Wikipedia practice for years, and each time you rotate to one of three arguments in a never-ending cycle, not acknowledging that I explained the reasoning behind what you just asked (and your venues to potentially change it) a few hours ago. I beg of you, please WP:LISTEN.

You also keep asserting and reasserting phrases with no bearing for Wikipedia policies and guidelines (why, in terms of Wikipedia rules/guidelines, is Budapest being humid subtropical "nonsense", especially when equally cold-winter NYC being humid subtropical is fine?) ; this derails the conversation, which should be about what Budapest is in Köppen, not the truth value of the Köppen classification (which is not what this encyclopedia is for). Also see the 'pyramid' at WP:TALKNO. Uness232 (talk) 14:34, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

You are arguing that climate is shifting, because of global warming . How you can not understand that Köppen Cfa areas was used to be found in the Humid subtopic zone, but it is not anymore true. Köppen itself was made to describe situation for the types of vegetation occurring in a given climate classification region. First Budapest will not have suddenly have different vegetable just because a 100 year old tempeature critera goes above a few tenth of Celsiuses. Second Köppen classification has nothing to do with man made environment as the vegetable is artificial in a city mainly. Third Cfa does not say anything about humidity it says: "uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type". It is misleading to use an obsolete expression (humid subtropic), first because C class is called "Temperate" and it is not humid, second because what "subtropics" article describes in its sections is not true for Budapest. Trewartha uses the "humid subtropical" experession, so if you want to use it use also its criteria, but not Köppen. Trewartha's criteria is to have at least 8 months with a mean temperature greater than 10 °C, which is not true for Budapest. It is much more correct to call it as it is bolded in the article: warm temperate climate. Please accept it. Thanks JSoos (talk) 16:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

You are arguing that climate is shifting, because of global warming . How you can not understand that Köppen Cfa areas was used to be found in the Humid subtopic zone, but it is not anymore true. Köppen itself was made to describe situation for the types of vegetation occurring in a given climate classification region. First Budapest will not have suddenly have different vegetable just because a 100 year old tempeature critera goes above a few tenth of Celsiuses.

You're right in the sense that transitional climates are difficult things, but does this not equally apply to New York City, Zonguldak or Lyon? All of these cities used to either be oceanic or continental, and now Köppen classifies them as Cfa. Do you want a general reconsideration of how these zones are used on Wikipedia pages, or is it just Budapest that bothers you? If it is the latter, that's essentially WP:IJDLI. If it is the former, go to Talk: Köppen climate classification or somewhere related and try to get consensus there. I do not agree with using old data simply for one city with no reason other than what exists everywhere else on the globe.

Second Köppen classification has nothing to do with man made environment as the vegetable is artificial in a city mainly.

Again, applies to every city. Should we stop using Köppen in cities? Or is it just Budapest that bothers you?

Third Cfa does not say anything about humidity it says: "uniform distribution of precipitation and a hot summer climate type".

As I have told you before, the "humid" in humid subtropical refers to high precipitation. It is the antonym of "dry climate". It has nothing to do with relative humidity. Other climate classifications, such as Holdridge life zones, also use this expression similarly.

It is misleading to use an obsolete expression (humid subtropic), first because C class is called "Temperate" and it is not humid, second because what "subtropics" article describes in its sections is not true for Budapest. Trewartha uses the "humid subtropical" experession, so if you want to use it use also its criteria, but not Köppen. Trewartha's criteria is to have at least 8 months with a mean temperature greater than 10 °C, which is not true for Budapest.

I will not argue on this page about the applicability of "humid subtropical" to Cfa climates. That discussion belongs to Talk:Humid subtropical climate. The reality is, by now, Budapest has a Cfa climate, and we call Cfa climates humid subtropical (yes, even with 7 or less months of temperatures above 10C, e.g Milan) on Wikipedia. You can contest that over there if you want, as well.

For your warm temperate climate suggestion, we do not use the term in any weatherbox I am aware of, and I've been around a lot of weatherboxes. If you want a general change, again, you're welcome to seek consensus in a more general forum. However I know very well that Wikipedia uniformly uses humid subtropical for Cfa, and the only usage I know of warm temperate specifically for Cfa is in that article. If you can provide me three or more major cities weatherboxes (let's say above 100,000 in population) for which Wikipedia uses the term warm temperate for Cfa specifically (so no oceanic or Mediterranean climates), I will be convinced of calling Budapest a warm temperate climate. Otherwise, doing it for Budapest only would cause confusion. Uness232 (talk) 17:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

And I am LISTENING too, when you say " I explain stuff that has been standard Wikipedia practice for years" then accept the standard meteorological practice for Budapest as the climate is described by experts for years and do not make your own research based on a table reassigning into a new zone which does not describe the situation correctly. JSoos (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Standard meteorological practice? Which one? I'm not doing "my own research"; I'm applying the rules of Köppen for a weatherbox; that's usually considered WP:CALC. Uness232 (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@JSoos

Classifying the climate type inside a classification scheme is not Original Research, you might have misunderstood how Original research differs from routine calculation. PAper GOL (talk) 19:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Not simply cold in some standards. See Trewartha climate classification.Hungary is cool to cold in Trewartha. PAper GOL (talk) 19:06, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@PAper GOL:

Thank you for your comments; I believe we need to keep this discussion more focused, however. I believe there are three pertinent questions that need to be answered (hopefully not missing anything):

1) Is Budapest's climate Cfa-class?

2) Is calling all Cfa-class climates humid subtropical reflective of Wikipedia policies/guidelines?

3) If not, is a change to "warm temperate climate" that is only for Budapest realistic, or does this need consensus at a broader scale? Uness232 (talk) 00:40, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

For the third question I think we need consensus at a broader scale. There has always been objections about the (humid subtropical) term for the Cfa subtype. PAper GOL (talk) 06:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

So, @PAper GOL, @JSoos and @OrionNimrod; can we at least agree to revert this page to its WP:QUO until any of us gain consensus one way or another at a larger discussion at Talk: Humid subtropical climate (or Talk:Köppen climate classification for the WP:CALC/climates from weatherboxes issue)? Uness232 (talk) 09:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I have a comment regarding this User talk:Joe Roe#Question about dispute resolution venues

I did not say Köppen is fringe, morover Köppen does not use those terms. I said only that Hungary would be "subtropical" country I found that term is fringe, by good faith, as I am a local Hungarian person I never ever heard about this (JSoos also a Hungarian user), and no any Hungarians know about this. Just I am looking out my window and I see a big snow... in that allegedly "subtropical" country. I also provided many Köppen maps which does not support that claim. Morover I see Hungary and even Budapest has more Köppen color in the maps, which means even a city has more climate. For example Buda-Pest (united city) is big, Buda has mountains, Pest is flat, Buda is always more cold than Pest, they have very different climate within the same united city, that is my personal experience, and all Budapest citizens know that. The provided Hungarian wiki writes also different and provide a complex situation of the country, and we learn that our climate is continental in general according to our knowledge. I contacted with the Hungarian meteorolgy service and they cannot confirm that "subtropical" thing. Köppen does not use those terms, Uness232 also mentioned that "subtropical" term was accepted by some users in the past for wikipedia, that is why need to follow that, I rather think we need follow academic sources regarding the exact definiton of the climate of a country instead of voting and rendering terms to temparetures.

I suppose in Hungary the local Hungarians know better the climate than others who are not living there, I also do not think that it deserve ANI because we the Hungarian local people does not know or does not understand that our country would be "subtropical"... I also do not understand why we need use those terms (what I found fringe) and why not enough just use the official Köppen numbers. Do you think all Hungarian users are wrong or deserve ANI just because they does not understand this?

Uness232 mentioned "status quo version", so I rolled back the page manually to discover when happened that change, and I see recently the climate was not that

Another Hungarian user reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest&diff=prev&oldid=931162653

IP edit changed to that "subtropical" "status quo version":

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Budapest&diff=next&oldid=975010444 OrionNimrod (talk) 11:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

"and I see a big snow... in that allegedly "subtropical" country" See main article subtropics. It covers areas with Mediterranean climate, and snowfall is not that rare in them. The article climate of Hungary describes the country's climate as "temperate seasonal climate". Dimadick (talk) 12:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, in the Koppen maps I can see many areas in Hungary even in Budapest as Dfa Dfb Cfa Cfb patches, so the climate map is not unified, so I do not understand why it needs cherry pick only one and emphasize this that the cherry picked one would be true for the whole area. Morover Koppen does not use that term for these codes https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-023-02549-6/tables/1 OrionNimrod (talk) 13:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Because Köppen has specific rules: Cfa is used for a place that has winter means between 0-18C, summers warmer than 22C, and has enough precipitation year round. The weather station given in the article satisfies all of these rules. Some parts of Budapest may be Dfa, and if there's station data that can verify that, we'll also include Dfa.

About the naming convention, if you want it changed, go to Talk: Humid subtropical climate. I've told you dozens of times that we can not change established naming convention just for one city. Uness232 (talk) 13:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

We wouldn’t pick only one classification if we find different figures for different stations across the urban or metro area.

So far there has been only one data table and that indicated a Cfa classification (or Do regarding Trewartha scheme). We have two more tables in the specific climate article and those show Dfa or Cfa/Dfa border. (Do/Dc in Trewartha).PAper GOL (talk) 14:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, though I’ve already pointed that out multiple times, and when @JSoos argued that some parts of Budapest have winters that are exactly 0C, I proposed a “borderline Cfa/Dfa” wording. They promptly rejected this by calling it a “POV-push”. The dispute here is not about the specifics of stations necessarily; I’ve already pointed out that the new, above-freezing winter normals are an urban phenomenon. The attempts being made here are to avoid calling Budapest “humid subtropical”. That seems impossible if a more general change is not implemented on Talk:Humid subtropical climate. Uness232 (talk) 14:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Snowfall is not a good parameter here, since a lot of snow can also fall in locations such as Dallas, or Rasht,which are undoubtedly subtropical.

By the way a few continental locations may barely receive any snow like Ulaanbator.

You mentioned the large size of the city, this one is important. The data I found for Pestszenlorinc (sorry for writing issues) shows much colder temperatures and chilly winters that can make it continental, so it’s better to say that it has temperate to continental climate.(Cfa/Dfa).PAper GOL (talk) 14:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Uness232 I see you admit that some part of Budapest can be Dfa, then why do you cherry pick Cfa only? Btw when I asked the Hungarian meterology service they said Hungary is rather Cfb for the country than Cfa. And in the Köppen maps, I see many patches, the climate is not unified. Also I emphasied that Buda and Pest is a 2 unified city, they have a total different climate.

Example:

Buda:

https://colore.hu/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Budapestnevei2_Rozsadomb_shutterstock_1392989171-1024x683.jpg

https://funzine.hu/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/20130911-normafa-kilatas-a-normafatol-telen11.jpg

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normafa

Pest: flat and warmer

https://www.legifoto.com/files/varosliget13.jpg

Stadion on the flat Pest and Buda mountains in the background:

https://3einternational.hu/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/116089782_905001009978317_6800126813310285776_o.jpg

Buda left, Pest right:

https://abouthungary.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/budapest.png

https://www.hungarycoupon.com/sites/default/files/images/product/budapest-south_0.jpg

https://www.budapestinfo.hu/storage/media-library/4490/vbOwq9j5x2NEEdN8zHdf28dydGDwd6eEXQH2baK6.jpg

I see the issue is the naming convention here, I have no time to involve these weather things in other articles, I am interested only Hungarian topics, but using "subtropical" term for Hungary show us, as many Hungarians users are opposing that your decided naming convention are not perfect for use every single areas.

But still I do not understand why do you think reporting users. Another Hungarian user (long term wiki member) who is not involved, but has the same opinion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Borsoka&diff=prev&oldid=1194443375 

"POV push" means "pushing certain point of view"

What is your plan? Thinking to report 10 million Hungarians in Hungary who do not understand why their own country would be "subtropical"? OrionNimrod (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I never said that Budapest could only be Cfa. In fact I specifically put forward the Cfa/Dfa wording. If it seemed like I said that, I might have explained myself insufficiently. I said that the urban core of Budapest is, by now, Cfa, and we call Cfa humid subtropical on Wikipedia. That is the full extent of what I said. If we want to take suburban stations into account, Budapest would be borderline humid subtropical and humid continental. I have no problem with that wording. It was indeed JSoos who rejected that, arguing for a removal of humid subtropical entirely. In their words:

"Budapest has a borderline humid continental and humid subtropical climate." is a PUSHPOV you wrote in to that article, so it is not really a good argument.

I also specifically said that I understood a report to ANI to be unwise on Joe Roe’s page, so I think you misunderstood that. Uness232 (talk) 15:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Layman note: subtropic classification won't be accepted in the article if at the same time all climate maps and maps of the Köppen system show Budapest's area as continental, and its inhabitants don't feel like they're in Italy. Gyalu22 (talk) 15:58, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The maps do not show the newest data. Station data does. How many times do I (and @PAper GOL) have to say this? Also parts of Italy (e.g parts of the Po Valley) are basically as cold as Budapest in winter. Italy is not just Palermo, and this type of generalization is exactly why we do not classify climates by feeling. Uness232 (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Also equally cold-winter cities like New York City are readily accepted as humid subtropical on Wikipedia; why all of this just for Budapest? Which Wikipedia policy/guideline would apply to Budapest and not to New York? Uness232 (talk) 16:19, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I think comparing New York and Budapest is total irrevelant, both are on total different continents, New York locates next to the ocean, Budapest inside the continent. New York at 40 degree N (like Madrid (Spain), Athen (Greece), Ankara (Turkey)) while Budapest is more north at 47 decree. And the climate of those cities, Madrid, Athen, Ankara are different than Budapest.

Because you made up a not perfect naming convention then you want to force this to every cities? Sorry but I see Hungarian users will understand this, go here ask the citizens of Budapest about "subtropical", I think all of them will laughing. Would you blame all Hungarians because of that? OrionNimrod (talk) 16:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I mean obviously they are not exactly the same (though they are definitely similar temperature-wise if you actually check the weatherboxes), but Köppen put them in the same zone (Dfa) pre-industrially, and they are now, because of climate change, (largely) Cfa. It has been established long ago (it’s even in the FAQ part of the talk page) that this was the consensus way of dealing with this in New York City and other such articles. How is Budapest different? Uness232 (talk) 16:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

We are just running in circles Uness, calling it temperate rather than subtropical is the best decision in my opinion and also adding it’s Trewartha climate classification which shows the same borderline but calls it oceanic instead of subtropical.PAper GOL (talk) 17:51, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

But why here, but not in any other city, @PAper GOL? Would that not cause consistency issues with other cities? Uness232 (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn’t say to change it only for Budapest. Any city that is In Group C of Koppen but not in Group C of Trewartha is better to be called temperate.

Cw would be monsoon temperate.

Cs is Mediterranean or dry-summer temperate the latter is better for cities in tropical highlands.

Cf humid temperate or simply temperate because not all the locations are actually humid(like Tbilisi or this Budapest).PAper GOL (talk) 18:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I’m sure doing the same to other cities that are Cfa in Koppen but not subtropical in Trewartha is am OK choice. There were a lot of discussions for New York and Milan before and now we have such thing for Budapest and maybe even Vienna and Geneva for the future.

Or we can do it based on what the respective country’s Meteo agency calls the region’s climate.

.PAper GOL (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

On your first suggestion, sure, but I believe that belongs to a discussion over at Talk: Humid subtropical climate (later note: the RfC was started at Talk:Köppen climate classification, as that is a more general venue). All of these cities already have consensus, especially Talk: New York City.

On your second suggestion; that would create very grave problems considering the Köppn-centricity of climate pages. What will we do when Portland, Oregon has an oceanic climate according to local literature, but the climate page says that oceanic climates need to not have dry summers? For this change to be realistic, Talk: Humid subtropical climate#A suggestion needed to be more fruitful. Otherwise, we’d be calling Gaziantep continental since that’s how Atalay et. al. classifies it, and link to a page that says continental climates need to have subfreezing averages in at least one month Uness232 (talk) 18:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

This can be often solved with proper wording.

Like (Portland, Oregon has a temperate climate with dry summers and oceanic influence).

or Budapest has a temperate climate with hot summers and chilly winters and continental features. PAper GOL (talk) 18:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair, but I still think this merits an RfC over at Talk: Köppen climate classification. It could very easily fall into WP:SYNTH territory if left unchecked. I’ll start the RfC in the next 7 days (though if the RfC rejects the proposal we’d have to revert). For now we can do this for Budapest. Is the following wording okay?

Budapest has a humid temperate climate with hot summers and chilly winters (Köppen: Cfa, Trewartha: Doa). Uness232 (talk) 18:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Got it. You can start the RfC at any time.

The wording is nice. Mentioning the urban area would make it even better.PAper GOL (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but not sure how to integrate that into the first sentence. Uness232 (talk) 20:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I also did not make up any naming convention. Wikipedia pages have been calling Cfa climates humid subtropical for years, maybe for more than a decade at this point. I just do not agree with a change for only Budapest when no other major city page calls Cfa by any other name. Uness232 (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

New York is next to the ocean and still has higher seasonal temp differences than Budapest, they both have chilly winters but still above freezingPAper GOL (talk) 17:48, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

References

RfC on climate descriptions & appropriate terminology

An RfC related to the climate discussion on this page; specifically whether generalized climate types (e.g. humid temperate for humid subtropical and oceanic) are appropriate in climate descriptions where climate classifications conflict, is taking place at Talk:Köppen climate classification#RfC: Generalizing climate type descriptions when classification systems conflict. Interested editors can chime in. Uness232 (talk) 00:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox photos

@OrionNimrod I understand that the photo is important, but as of now many screens can not properly show the caption "Fisherman's Bastion with Matthias Church". Would you be okay with removing a different photo from the infobox instead? Uness232 (talk) 20:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uness232, yes I see, so I removed one and readded below. Btw I think all images at the page are not the best quality, I see already many much more better photos from the city, probably those images are not free. OrionNimrod (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Weather box

@PAper GOL Is there any reason why we are using the Pestszentlőrinc station and not the downtown one? We can still add "closely bordering continental" if we link to the data in the body text, but I don't see why that would be our station of choice for our one weather box. Uness232 (talk) 17:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The weatherbox does not really refer to any specific station. I wanted to collect extreme temperature values, so I used both stations available in NOAA/WMO for that. But then I found the extreme values for Budapest in a single page from Hungaromet. I cleaned up the references and forgot removing the footnote about stations.

The current weatherbox here does not collect data from Pestszentlőrinc except maybe some temp extremes.PAper GOL (talk) 18:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@PAper GOL So where are the normal values from? The weatherbox now gives 0.0C in the coldest month and 22.5C in the hottest month. That's the same as Pestszentlőrinc as seen in Climate of Budapest. Uness232 (talk) 19:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Those values (avg temperature and precipitation) come from Hungarian meteorological service on behalf of Budapest for 1991-2020 normal values. It does not state the exact location of the station. It may not even come from a single one.PAper GOL (talk) 20:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Just checked the source. It is Pestszentlőrinc indeed. I know why it has higher importance, because it was recorded in the international airport which is located in Pestszentlőrinc. And since it was provided by the national meteo service, I think it would be fine to have this location for the weather box.PAper GOL (talk) 20:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@PAper GOL I see, then I'll change the main station at Climate of Budapest too. Uness232 (talk) 21:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Humid temperate

Writing humid temperate isn’t clear.

If you’re writing Cfa you mean humid subtropical. This is the accurate climate type. דולב חולב (talk) 12:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion (that you participated in, by the way) that came to this consensus wording. Humid temperate refers inclusively to humid subtropical (per Köppen) and oceanic (per Trewartha), without writing both. Uness232 (talk) 13:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)