Talk:Bugatti Type 57S Atalante (57502)

Notability?

I applied the notability tag to this article. The current most expensive car sold at auction doesn't have its own article, so why should this one which is presently only "speculated" according to the article itself to possibly be the most expensive car at auction. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 19:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yep this should me merged to Bugatti Type 57 article --Typ932 ^T·C 19:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Replied at the merge discussion. MickMacNee (talk) 23:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I have closed that merge discussion, with the result of pasting the Background section of this article over there. If there is still a notability issue, then I suggest Afd, as I do not believe this article being merged into the Type article will achieve anything but unbalance that article. MickMacNee (talk) 01:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Photograph

The photograph was copylifted from a publication. I'm sorry, but trying to justify the copyright violation with gymnastics is silly. It's a copyrighted image, and that's all there is to it. It *IS NOT* a "unique historic image" as the description asserts, it is a copyrighted image owned by "NORTH NEWS & PICTURES LTD." Proxy User (talk) 15:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The image was identified as a copyrigthed image, as it had an appropriate non-free use rationale. I am restoring it. If you want to debate the validity of the rationale, the correct venue is WP:IFD. MickMacNee (talk) 02:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

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Bugatti Type 57S Atalante number 57502 → Bugatti Type 57S Atalante (57502) —A fancruft title for this article: an average Joe and Joan Public, despite being interested in Bugattis, is not likely to know what serial number that car is and will not be an interest to them as all they will only remember is for being that car that sold for that said million. Only historians, enthusiasts, auctioneers and those involved in the industry will only be those who are likely to take interest to car serial numbers. Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 21:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC) Donnie Park (talk) 13:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

• Ambivolent. The title was most definitely not chosen because I am a producer of FANCRUFT, so unless you are sure, its probably best not to throw around labels that some find offensive. As to the suggested rename, I cannot see why (57502) would make any more sense to readers. Why not (No. 57502)? MickMacNee (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't mean to call you a fancruft and apologies if I offended you as I didn't think it was offensive at first. As with this article or any article, I was thinking how about (s/n 57502), considering most enthusiasts refer serial numbers as s/n.

• Serial numbers have the advantage of clarity and uniqueness - as your own suggested name shows. We could call it the "Earl Howe" Bugatti 57 instead, or the Newcastle Bugatti, but Earl Howe had type 35s as well and Newcastle smacks a little of WP:OR. I'd have no opinion on either the current name, or your alternative, but neither is fancruft. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

It depends on what this car was known as, its almost like naming an article about the record breaking ex-James Corburn Ferrari 250 GT SWB California Spyder as Ferrari 250 GT SWB California Spyder (James Corburn), I say as what I mentioned about, how about t (s/n 57502). Donnie Park (talk) 17:17, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

It's known as "57502", because it's a black Atalante and that's the simplest way to refer to it, that distinguishes it from other black Atalantes. If anything, we could call it "Dr Wotsit's Bug". Andy Dingley (talk) 19:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What I removed and why

Andy Dingley: here's a detailed breakdown of what content I removed from the article. I do believe none of it was important, let me know what you think.

The Bugatti Type 57S Atalante number 57502 is one of a batch of rare French sports coupes built in 1937 by the Bugatti company, a version of the Bugatti Type 57. Of the 710 Type 57 cars built,^{we're talking Type 57S here} only 43 were Type 57S and only 17 of those were produced with the in-house Bugatti Atalante coupe coachwork (not to be confused with the Type 57 Atlantic body).

The car with chassis number 57502 (registration EWS 73, ex-DYK 5, ex-works-1127-W5)[2][3]^{details already mentioned in article body} was rediscovered in 2008 having been stored in a private owner's garage in Gosforth, Newcastle upon Tyne, England, for 48 years, with few people aware of its location. Described as "one of the last great barn discoveries" by classic car experts, it was sold at auction by Bonhams on 7 February 2009. Set at a reserve price of £3 million, due to its low mileage and original condition, it was speculated that it could become the most expensive car ever sold at auction, at around £6 million.[4] These hopes were dashed, however, as it reached £2,989,495 (US$4,408,575).

The car was bought originally by the 5th Earl Howe in 1937 who owned it for eight years. It passed to three intermediate owners before being bought in 1955 by Harold Carr, from Newcastle upon Tyne.[4] He drove it for a few years, then locked it in his garage in 1960, where it was discovered by his family after his death in 2007.^{Owners section for this, not really needed in lead}

Specification Chassis number 57502 was completed at the Bugatti works on 5 May 1937, wearing the works number plate 1127-W5,[3] and then wore the British number plate DYK 5,[2] later being re-registered as EWS 73, the number which it wore on rediscovery. When discovered, 57502 still possessed its original chassis, engine, drive train and body. It had an odometer reading of 26,284 miles (42,300 km), described as "remarkably low".^{Excessive detail. Low mileage gets mentioned later} While mostly original, the car as found in 2008 did contain some modifications from the originals. Dating from bespoke modifications made by Earl Howe, the car possessed unique bumpers, rear-view mirrors on the A-pillars, and a luggage rack. In addition, due to the fitting of a Marshall K200 supercharger while it was owned by Mr J P Tingay, the car was with respect to engine power closer to the retrofitted super-charged types, (although the K200 is not the same supercharger used on the original C or SC models however).

According to James Knight of the Bugatti's future auctioneer Bonhams, the rediscovered Bugatti "is incredibly original and, although she requires restoration, it is "restoration" in the true sense of the word...save for some of the interior, all original parts can be restored or conserved in order to maintain originality".[5]^{Auction catalogue blabbering}

Ownership history The car was ordered new from Bugatti by Francis Curzon (1884–1964), the 5th Earl Howe, a former Naval officer and British politician. He took delivery of it on 9 June 1937 from Sorel of London, the UK agents for Bugatti. Curzon was a keen motor racing enthusiast, racing several times in the famous 24 Hours of Le Mans endurance race, winning the 1931 race, and the first president of the British Racing Drivers' Club (BRDC).^{there's a whole article on the 5th Earl Howe if one wants to delve deeper}

The Bugatti was then sold via Continental Cars to a Mr J P Tingay in 1947. A Mr M H Ferguson acquired the Bugatti from Tingay in 1950 and by 1954 it formed part of the collection of Lord Ridley of Northumberland. ^{mentioning the number of owners is more than enough}

In April 1955 Harold Carr paid Jack Barclays £895 for the car ($2,500 US),^minutiael but drove it for only a few years. Dr Carr then stored the car in a lock up garage after its last tax disc expired in December 1960, where it remained unused and untouched.

Harold Carr Harold "Harry" Carr was born in Newcastle in 1917, and died on 14 June 2007, aged 89.[6] Carr gained both medical and engineering degrees, and had worked both as an orthopaedic surgeon and an osteopath, and ran a family wholesalers business in Newcastle, JJ Macy's.[6] He was described as "generous", "eccentric" and a sort of "mad doctor" by his family. The life of Dr Carr was compared with that of eccentric American millionaire Howard Hughes,^{A little of local colour? Not a biography we're writing here. All this doesn't add anything about the car} due to a passion for machinery, aviation and adventuring, and also due to suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), which in later life turned him into a recluse.[6] The reasons for Carr storing the car unused for so long was attributed to a hoarding instinct which he had developed and had progressively worsened since the 1950s, due to his OCD.[6] In addition to the Bugatti, the hoarding had led to Carr collecting everything from receipts for pencils to 1,500 German beer steins.[6][7] His hoarding instinct also meant that the documentary history of the car had been preserved.^{1500 German beer steins. Crazy!}

Rediscovery The car had been stored in a garage in Gosforth.[1] In his later life, Carr's OCD had caused him to become a recluse.^again.. After his death, while clearing the garage of his uncle's possessions in 2008, the nephew discovered the Bugatti in the lock up garage, along with a "treasure trove" of cars including a classic Aston Martin and a Jaguar E-type. The Aston was sold while the Jaguar was scrapped due to its condition.[8]^Trivia! According to the nephew, notes found in the garage showed that some people had previously inquired about the car, and had even visited Mr Carr in attempts to buy it from him. According to James Knight of the car's future auctioneer Bonhams, had stated on its discovery, "I have known of this Bugatti for a number of years and, like a select group of others, hadn't dared divulge its whereabouts to anyone."^{more catalogue description} Friends who knew Dr. Carr were reported to have stated that Carr would have known the true value of the car, and that he would never answer the door to collectors who called on him in person, and they would resort to writing offers on notes for neighbours to post through his letter box.[9]^{"friends were reported to have stated..."}

Auction Being unmarried and having no children, Carr left his possessions to his nieces and nephews.^{Children, nephews or aunts, mentioning the number of heirs is enough.} Other family members had been aware that Dr. Carr had possessed the Bugatti and other cars, but the true value of the car had remained unknown to them, coming as a surprise.

The Carr family instructed the auction house Bonhams to sell the car, with the proceeds to be shared between eight relatives who inherited his estate.[10]^{that's how it's done usually...} It was to form the centrepiece of their sale at the Rétromobile car show in Paris, and be sold on 7 February 2009.[11]

Analysts speculated that the car could sell as high as £6 million, which would have made it the most expensive car ever sold at auction. As of 2005 six of the most expensive cars sold for over £3 million, with the most expensive, a 1931 Bugatti Royale Kellner Coupe sold for £4.87 million in 1987, holding the record for the most expensive car sold at auction, adjusted for inflation.[7][12]^{minutiae. the point is that 6m was a record price} While the car would attract global buyers, opinions were varied in November 2008 as to whether the classic car auction market had been affected by the 2008 recession affecting the United Kingdom economy.[13]^{analist opinions. let's have auction facts please}

When it came to auction three months later the Carr Bugatti had a reserve price of £3 million, which it failed to meet, falling just short at £2,989,495 (3,417,500 euros, US$4,408,575).[14]

Since the discovery of 57502 other less desirable Type 57S Atalantes have been said to sell for millions in recent years. An Atalante which did not have its original chassis, but was built by combining an Atalante body on a Type 57C chassis, was sold at auction in 2007 for $852,500, from a top estimate of $400,000.[15]^{Auction price of other Atalantes, entirely unrelated.}

Cloverleaf II (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

"it fell short of the £3 million reserve price, selling for £2,989,495"

How can something sell below reserve? --85.249.40.80 (talk) 12:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)