Talk:Bulbasaur

The Bulb

What happens when it's Bulb get's torn apart or maybe rotten like other plants 41.114.37.31 (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Notability?

How come Bulbasaur and Squirtle have their own pages, but Charmander doesn't? 180.235.104.6 (talk) 23:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Because Charmander didn't have enough sources to support itself. Charizard eclipsed it in terms of reception to boot.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:10, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Grass / Poison

Per WP:SLASH, which states "Generally, avoid joining two words with a slash [...] because it suggests that the words are related without specifying how. Replace with clearer wording." which is what I have attempted to do. Despite other Pokemon related articles doing this, they probably should not and we should stick to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style on this. I know the games use the slash regularly for multi-typed Pokémon, but to anyone not familiar with the games, the slash could suggest that the types are interchangeable. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

For the purposes of the infobox typing should be fine to utilize the slash, as the MOS guidelines applies to text, not an instance like that. Now I do agree in the body of the text they should be separate, but maintain capitalization as they do in the games. This also seems to match consensus across the other articles.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Where is there any consensus? I'm sure people applied it, but just because they have does not mean it avoids the issues of capitalization and WP:SLASH. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Well you've had 3 editors revert it now, so...--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:30, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes but none of them have cited any rules on why they are capitalized other than "well we feel like it". In Red and Blue, they are in full capital letters. Per MOS:GAMECAPS, "Terms relating to trademarked sports, games, and activities are capitalized if they are usually capitalized in the context of this activity: ability scores in Dungeons & Dragons, card names in Magic: The Gathering, etc. However, generic terms such as hit point, victory point, or player character are not capitalized." However, this differs between the games, so what do we do in this case? I appreciate people trying to correct me, but no one has said anything beyond "this is just what we do". Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

type names in pokémon are consistently treated as proper nouns everywhere ever since gen 5

not really sure why gen 4 kept the all caps trend, but whatever, caps lock is cruise control for cool

and even ignoring what official media has to say, sources that don't include egregious errors (like pluralizing pokémon names, which is a federal crime in 39 continents) also treat type names like proper nouns

the issue, if one can even say there is one, is whether or not it should be referred to as "grass/poison" in the body, to which consensus seems to lean towards "no" cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 17:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm surprised we even talk about the typing in it, which is only mentioned in the lead and infobox and is not sourced or discussed anywhere in the article. It might be a bit MOS:INUNIVERSE and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE which states " the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article." In the long run, as it is not brought up anywhere within the prose outside the lead, how important is this typing? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

important enough for a discussion this long, it seems

though when it comes to ingame info and how bulbasaur can be recieved based on it, i'd say it's not one of the 4 pokémon that can't be considered inseparable from its typing cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 18:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Significantly for the vast majority, enough that it weighs on reception more often than not in how the character is perceived from both a gameplay angle but also a character angle (i.e. Wooloo).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't really appreciate comments like "important enough for a discussion this long, it seems", nobody is forcing you to keep up with it, so I suggest remaining civil. Either way, at this point, it is unsourced and its questionable we include this stuff in the infobox. But perhaps that can be brought up in talk page for the infobox instead. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

alright, my bad

that seems like a good idea, since it would also apply to all the other pokémon cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 18:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It's handled through an additional parameter through the infobox, and that infobox is used for far more than just Pokemon. So I'm not seeing the purpose of opening a discussion there, let alone any good coming from it. It's also information that, unlike say a developer or voice actor, doesn't need a direct citation for its use in the infobox. If there was a consensus requiring that it'd been brought up across multiple GANs/FACs at this point.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why it doesn't require a direct citation. If you haven't played the game, honestly, even if you've only seen the show or played the card game, the information does does not the same across the board. I'm pretty sure Bulbasaur is only grass in the card games as well, so it leads to further issues. I know it's not specific to here, but where should it be brought up? Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

the problem with that is that while the anime and tcg are undeniably "kinda popular", they're still based on the information presented in the games, and to my knowledge, secondary to them as far as articles on the pokémon are concerned. in addition to that, whenever nearly any form of official pokémon media writes anything, they use the specific writing style from the games

i don't think the tcg works as an argument at all, though, since pokémon (usually) only ever have one type there, some types don't exist, the fairy type was apparently removed from existence in gen 8, and sometimes, pokémon's typings are completely wrong (see blastoise δ being fighting/steel metal). this would also require assuming that someone somehow only knows about any given pokémon's typing from the tcg and thinks galvantula is pure electric (with one electric/grass card), and all coverage i found on the tcg seems to assume the average player is smarter than that

as far as direct citations go, uh, here's an official site saying meowscarada is grass/dark i guess. i'm not sure what exactly would work for a citation on how wording works in pokémon

to recap, i think trying to adapt to the anime and/or tcg wouldn't work because they'd either be pointless rewords of things the games, ads, sites, social media, and everything else have already done for ages with less total characters, or have to mention that rhydon was fighting/dark that one time cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 20:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

If it not being cited is an issue then I've gone and added a reference to it in the text. Not exactly glamorous and I could probably get a better source but it's whatever. In any case, the whole issue with "should it have a slash" seems a bit silly. Given it's in the infobox and has gone without issue across several Good Article reviews, as well as the fact that multiple editors have agreed with the consensus to use a slash in the infobox, I feel that the general consensus seems to indicate that the slash is alright and not exactly an issue. This is especially so given that the text clarifies that Bulbasaur has both; if you feel I can clarify it further in the text, then let me know, but I think any of the issues this could bring up are either resolved or negligible. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

oh, technical oopsie

i thought that was referring to an infobox specifically about pokémon

then it should probably stay here or go to a broader pokémon article (like the list of pokémon)

either way, my points stand

that words like "grass", when used in the specific context of referring to pokémon types, are considered proper nouns. so while it's lowercase in a sentence like "Slaking eats grass", it's a proper noun in a sentence like "Giga Drain is a Grass-type move"

and that while the slash is used in the specific context of separating pokémon types everywhere since gen 2-ish (unless type icons are used instead), i'd say separate it with a comma in the infobox, but not the body cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 19:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Doing a line break here, but Izno in the Wikipedia discord suggested "Grass and Poison" for the infobox, which admittedly I can live with a lot better than the comma.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd be fine with adding that into both this and other articles should that be what the decision comes to Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Outside comment who saw the conversation on Discord: First, the MOS does apply to Infoboxes (as Izno noted), but I don't think the "slash" is being used as a normal slash would be, but rather as a "term of art". So the question is whether this is something closer to a proper name that is merely repeated (say, Victor/Victoria) and the MOS doesn't control, or closer to running text. IMO, it's a term of art. So the slash is fine. Agree "and" is the second-best option, but I don't think it's even necessary to do this. (If hypothetically Bulbasaur was a "Grss + Poizn" type or something similarly silly, but that's how all the sources reported it, we should just shrug and repeat it. But I'm very firmly a "trust the source, including for formatting" advocate. If someone can show that secondary sources don't use a slash, though, go for it.)

Re the earlier comment on "how important is this typing?", the answer is "very". I'd say it's on the level of mentioning that Gandalf is a wizard or Strider is a ranger, a core identity deal for Pokemon. SnowFire (talk) 22:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Victor/Victoria is the title of the work and in the case, the names are being used interchangably in that work, which is what a slash for. In terms of Pokémon, they are not. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

We say that it is important, but it's important from a gameplay perspective, which is not brought up anywhere in the article and isn't sourced and is not discussed in the reception either. So it is important for gameplay, but the article is predominantly about other things. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

the problem with this, i feel, is that information like pokémon's types is plastered everywhere so hard that it becomes a common element of reception that people just accept (unless it involves charizard). it's pokémon, everyone and their hypertraditionalist christian grandma knows pokémon, and news articles act like it, so i believe it can reasonably be referred to as a case of not needing to cite that the sky is sky-colored, or that pokémon types are separated with slashes

if you want to go a bit further, source 14 (picked at random with my eyes closed) has its typing as an entry, with bulbasaur's face on full display, and the first sentence in that entry explicitly mentioning that it's grass/poison, and source 10 is the pokédex, so if all else somehow fails, there's a primary source

and as of yesterday in my time zone, there is a source tied to the claim, and that's... coincidentally source 14

thanks, pokelego cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 15:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure many people know about Pikachu. I'm sure if you asked your average non-video game player what type pikachu is, they'd just have to guess. So no, its not obvious, and it's even less obvious when you go beyond Pikachu. Believe it or not, some people have not played these games. I think a primary source is fine for this as its unique to the game, but I think I want to get back to the main point here on whether using the slash is against WP:SLASH or not, and nobody has suggested anything convincing otherwise. I'm happy to go with either commas or and & or an "and", but slash is probably not the best bet for the reasons I've stated above. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas I've gone ahead and changed every Pokémon species article with a dual-type to now say "Type and Type" instead of "Type/Type" in their infobox. Hopefully this should assuage the issue. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that is great! that's a lot of work so that is appreciated. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bulbasaur/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Pokelego999 (talk · contribs) 13:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: TrademarkedTWOrantula (talk · contribs) 03:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Bulb-bulb! (I have no idea what it says...) TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 03:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@TrademarkedTWOrantula just checking in since it's been a bit. I assume you've been busy lately? If so, that's alright, and take your time with the review process as you've been doing. Just wanted to check in in any case. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Yep. :) The week's been piling up on me. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 14:08, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Pokelego999: I have finished your review. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 04:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@TrademarkedTWOrantula I'll get to your review as soon as possible, but I'm very busy this week, so forgive me if I'm a bit late on replying back. Taking a cursory glance though, thank you for pointing out the unreliable sources. These seem to be leftovers I missed in my pass-over, and I'll get to removing them as soon as I can. I can't seem to find the "The West News" you pointed out, but the rest should be simple enough to fix with source replacements. I will note that SoraNews is reliable to my knowledge, but I will try to buff that point a little once I get to the review all the same. Apologies about the tardiness, but I just thought I'd let you know in advance so it doesn't seem like I'm skimping out on the review in case something does come up. I aim to finish this by next week at the latest, though I should hopefully get it done sooner than then, depending on my schedule. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 03:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. I've got my own things, too. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 03:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Ping me when you've finished responding to my comments. Thanks, TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 04:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@TrademarkedTWOrantula I've made the requested edits. I've kept a few due to the fact I feel they work with the article's flow a bit better, with one notable one being May's Bulbasaur, mostly in part due to May's being its own character in the anime, in comparison to the games where the Pokemon themselves lack an individual personality and role in the story. I've also patched up the iffy bits in regards to your source spotchecks, with most of them being simple to remedy (I really could've sworn I was already citing the article mentioning Sycamore). Let me know if you have any other concerns, and I'll respond as promptly as I can. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 05:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Y All concerns have been addressed. Passing... TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 14:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Grammar is mostly clean. No typos spotted.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Lead section is of adequate length. Layout is correct per MOS:LAYOUT. Article is not infested with words found on the WTW list. Fiction is out-of-universe. List incorporation policy does not apply.
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Reference section is present, and no bare URLs are spotted.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Sources used are mostly reliable.
	2c. it contains no original research.	Spotchecking is a bit iffy. There's a 50/50 text-source integrity. Resolved.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Article is free of copyright violations, per Earwig.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Article has adequate information about conception and design, appearances, promotional material, and reception.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Article stays focused.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Article is neutral.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Article is stable.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Bulbasaur character artwork is tagged with a valid non-free use rationale.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	The Bulbasaur art, the only image in the article, is relevant.
	7. Overall assessment.	Saur!

Copyright violations

• Nice one! The top result is at a 9.1% similarity, according to Earwig.

Lead

• I'd recommend directly stating that Bulbasaur is a Pokémon species rather than mentioning its type. You could move this information to another sentence.
• subsequent sequels
• Unlink "merchandise"
• "printed" as in like a manga?
• later being obtained by May
• It is featured in various manga and is owned by protagonist Red in the Pokémon Adventures manga. - Would cut "the" and "manga" since the previous part of the sentence technically implies it is one of them
• Bulbasaur has been featured in myriad pieces of merchandise, including toys, key chains, and plush dolls. - Hmm... this is repeating information ("related merchandise" was said a few sentences earlier)
• Bulbasaur can evolve into Ivysaur and eventually Venusaur. - This sentence kind of feels out of place, considering that Bulbasaur's appearances are mentioned before its evolutions.
• has generally been received positively -> "has been positively received"
• one of the best Pokémon and best starter Pokémon - ??? I feel like the word "overall" should go somewhere in this sentence.

Conception and design

• That copypasta is al dente!
• one of the character designers -> "a character designer"
• who based its design on Ivysaur, the next evolved form of Bulbasaur, who was designed first. - Woah woah woah! This sentence is too fast for me.
• Pokémon Red and Blue, released in Japan in 1996. - Already stated in the previous paragraph
• Its Japanese name, Fushigidane - Not sure why this isn't mentioned in the lead.
• "In translating" -> "While translating"?
• Cut "appearance or" in "appearance or features" - Third word in phrase already implies that species are named after their appearance
• Cut "as a means"
• convey a transition of this Pokémon from the harmless to the dangerous -> "...show it getting increasingly dangerous..."
• "came about" - Suggest using a more formal phrase
• "into the development of the games" -> "into development" - Sentence already implies X and Y were the games in development
• decided that they
• the game's professor
• to see their Mega Evolved form. - Two things. One: Does "their" refer to the player? Two: Phrasing's a bit awkward; not sure how to reword this.
• are based on frogs
• "squat"?
• Link quadrupedalism to "move on all four legs"
• Remove comma between "legs" and "and"
• Not sure if we can say "turquoise" instead of "blue-green"
• and then later into - Sounds kinda awkward
• then sprouts and grows larger as the Bulbasaur grows -> "...sprouts and grows along with it."
• which allows it to grow, and for this reason, Bulbasaur enjoy soaking up the sun's rays. -> "which Bulbasaur enjoy because their seeds can grow."
• They can also
• Unquote types
• and feeling that

Appearances

• initial three (next part of sentence implies so)
• Bulbasaur and the other starters from Red and Blue -> "These Pokémon"
• and are instead
• How would I get the starter Pokémon in Pokémon Yellow?
• "appears in all other entries in the series" -> "appears in every (adventure? main?) game in the series"
• Bulbasaur is not available until the release of Pokémon Sword and Shield: The Isle of Armor -> "Bulbasaur was not available until the release of The Isle of Armor, a downloadable content expansion pack."
• Bulbasaur is not available in Pokémon Scarlet and Violet until the release of The Indigo Disk. -> "...Bulbasaur was not made available in Pokémon Scarlet and Violet until the release of The Indigo Disk."
• Weird author name in reference #23 (Austin Wood, Gamesradar)
• "also features" -> "is also featured"
• Not sure about using the trophy list? Seems like a primary source to me.
• based on Bulbasaur (vague pronoun was used)
• Wait, is the plural of Bulbasaur "Bulbasaur"?
• Link Ash Ketchum
• The character May also captures one in Pokémon: Advanced. She later makes a guest appearance, where it is revealed that her Bulbasaur has fully evolved into a Venusaur. - Not important; Pokémon are meant to be captured and evolve, so I'd consider it an ordinary moment.
• "a herd of them lead Pikachu" -> "a herd leads Pikachu"
• "In making the film" -> "While filming"
• Link computer-generated imagery to CGI

Promotion and reception

• Cut "varying pieces of"
• Cut "extensive merchandise of the character, including"
• Singaporean popcorn - How is that merchandise?? Might want to clarify they have a flavor named after Bulbasaur.
• It has also been used in promotional merchandising at fast-food chains -> "It has been marketed as a toy at fast-food chains..."
• Would like an image for the reception section. Just any image with Bulbasaur in it.
• Don't have time to list errors, so I'm gonna correct them myself.
• citing its appealing storyline as endearing Bulbasaur to him - ???
• "feeling attached" is a bit informal

Sources

• CBR content posted after 2016 is unreliable, per WP:VG/S.
• Not sure how The West News is reliable.
• Attack of the Fanboy is unreliable per WP:VG/S.
• The Pojo??? Never heard of them.
• Not sure how The Enemy is reliable.
• What's ref #47's source supposed to be? Is it reliable?

Spotchecking

Six sources. Go! References are of this revision.

• N #8 - Does not mention anything about Professor Sycamore.
• Y #15
• Y #25 - They're costumes to me?
• N #34 - Does not mention anything about Bulbasaur leading Pikachu to heal Mewtwo
• N #44 - Sure, the image counts, but the article doesn't mention anything about Bulbasaur being at the event.
• Y #53

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Wikipedia:WikiProject Pokémon/Bulbasaur" listed at Redirects for discussion

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