Talk:Bus 300 affair

relevant cats

Are these relevant: 1984 road accidents | Bus accidents in Israel ? --Shuki (talk) 18:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I'll go ahead and remove them. Ray^Talk 21:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

article needs expansion

The article contains almost no information about the political drama which shook Israel for over two years after the incident. There was a power struggle between the executive branch and the judicial system over whether the Shabak members involved were to face trial. This struggle had a lasting effect on the independence of the Attorney General from the Cabinet. If anyone knows more about this it would make a really important addition. --Zvika (talk) 06:25, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Lack of references

Apart from some notable exceptions, the Aftermath Section is almost completely free from any references or citations. Two of the most important cites are to a non-existent webpage. If these cannot be properly sourced, then they will have to be removed.Khavakoz (talk) 12:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this an improvement?Padres Hana (talk) 22:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

David Shipler's report as published by The Times (London) Saturday 21 April 1984.

ISRAEL IN DOCK OVER BUS TERRORIST. From David Shipler, New York Times, Bani Suheila, Gaza.

Evidence is accumulating that one of the Arabs who hijacked an Israeli bus last week may have been captured alive and killed later. His mother, uncle, cousin and neighbours identified him on Wednesday as the man photographed by the Israeli newspaper Hadashot as he was being led handcuffed from the bus by two security agents. The picture was shown on Tuesday to people in the village of Bani Suheila by a journalist from the newspaper. The Israeli military censor has barred publication of the picture. The photograph is of excellent quality, and many residents said they recognized the man as Majdi Abu Jumaa. A neighbour gave the paper a photograph of the young man taken a year ago, and the resemblance is unmistakable. Several days ago he was named by the Israeli Army spokesman as one of four Arabs who took part in the hijacking. The spokesman insisted that all four were killed in the assault. When news of the photograph came to light several days ago, the spokesman speculated that the man being led away, alive and apparently unharmed, was a passenger, possibly one under suspicion for collaboration in the hijacking. The spokesman stuck to this position on Wednesday, denying the assertions that the hijacker was killed after capture. He added that autopsies were done on all four bodies.

On Friday 27 April 1984, The Times (London), published a report "Israel reprimands US journalist" by Christopher Walker: On Tuesday, Mr Shipler, a senior member of the large foreign press corps, was summonded by Mr Mordechai Dolinsky, director of the Government press office. A subsequent communique said: "Mr Shipler was officially informed that he has been in violation of military censorship, and the rules of censorship were reviewed with him. The consequences of the violation of these rules were spelt out for him in the strongest possible terms." Although certain senior Government figures are understood to have pressed for the revocation of Mr Shipler's Israeli press credentials, official sources said yesterday that there was no intention to take further action against him. Mr Shipler, a former Moscow correspondent, is to leave Israel soon to head his paper's Washington bureau. Padres Hana (talk) 20:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

BLP

Is it just me, or is practically everything referenced to or about Ehud Yatom a BLP violation? Particularly since the one source it uses doesn't load? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree this section needs work. I hope to be able to do something but I can't find my references at present. Though from memory I think that it is pretty accurate. Padres Hana (talk) 07:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I also think it's pretty accurate, but without sources I think it's a big no-no. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Christopher Walker

Does anyone happen to have the actual Christopher Walker article most of this article is based on? Got link? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

No link. Unfortunately only a public library. But I have copies of all the reports quoted. For example:

Christopher Walker. The Times (London), 26 April 2010

Padres Hana (talk) 17:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Personal account by 41.3.88.107

Very little has ever been written about the survivors of this attack. My wife, Karen Ben-Ya'acov was a passenger on the bus travelling home to Ashkelon on her way back home from work in Tel-Aviv. We were newly-wed, I was still serving in the army and she was pregnant with our daughter. She was slightly injured and after the rescue was taken straight to hospital. Thankfully both she and my daughter (now 26) survived, though Karen was severely traumatised, never went back on a bus and ultimately left Israel. Whilst condoning the actions of the Israeli forces is inappropriate, I am forever grateful that they intervened and saved the lives of all the passengers except for the poor female Israeli soldier who was shot through the head by one of the soldiers when she stood up rather than duck down as instructed. No passengers were interviewed or their experiences taken into account during that very long night held captive by armed men who would have in my opinion just as easily opened fire on the passengers as other terrorists have in the past. [Moved from the article to the talk page. Thanks for sharing 41.3.88.107.     ←   ZScarpia   13:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC)]

This source

Gidi Weitz, 'Newly released papers reveal how Shin Bet tried to hide 'Bus 300' killings.' in Haaretz 27 September 2011Nishidani (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

armed militants

Is it correct that they were armed with knives and a suitcase which they claimed to be a bomb? Padres Hana (talk) 11:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

See source. The suitcase later on turned to actually be empty. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I think what is bothering me is the over-use of the word "militant" where "teenager" would be equally applicable. Padres Hana (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I strongly oppose. Throughout the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict a large part of the atrocities carried out by the Palestinian militancy organizations were actually carried out by teenagers who were recruited by the organizations – prominent examples, among many examples, include the 1979 Nahariya attack carried out by a squad of Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) militants led by Samir Kuntar, who was only 16 years of age at the time, nevertheless, during the attack he shot to death at close range an unarmed 32-year-old citizen in front of his 4-year-old daughter and then brutally killed the girl by smashing her skull against the rocks with the butt of his rifle. Another prominent example is the Hamas operative Ayat al-Akhras, whom was only 18 years of age when she attempted to carry out a massive casualty murderous suicide bombing in a Jerusalem supermarket (Due to the courages actions of the security guard stationed at the entrance to the supermarket only two Israeli civilians were killed in the attack and a much deadlier disaster was avoided). Another prominent example is the Islamic Jihad operative Hamza Samudi, whom was only 18 years of age at the time of the attack, nevertheless, After Samudi received driving lessons specifically for the purpose of committing the attack, he carried out the horrific 2002 suicide bombing in the Megiddo junction in which he killed 17 Israeli soldiers and civilians.

It should be noted that IDF soldiers are also recruited in their teenage years (at age 18), nevertheless, in Wikipedia we refer to them as "soldiers" and not as "teenagers", especially not in articles that describe actions carried out by the Israeli military forces - I am sure that you are not suggesting that we should refer to the Israeli soldiers as "teenagers" in those articles. It seems to me that by suggesting that we refer to the militants as "teenagers" you are attempting to belittle the actions of these militants. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It was only that the use of militant four times in the first paragraph of the details section seems to me to be over doing it and not scan very well. My reaction to the encounters I have had with members of the IDF is how young they have been - I would have no problem describing them as teenagers. As for all the citations needed at the start - I think they are all pretty well sourced in the body of the article. Padres Hana (talk) 22:04, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources needed for the lead

Please provide reliable sources for all the allegations in the lead. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

POV tag

This is first time I have put one of these up. The use of "terrorist" is overdone, "hyjackers" is more accurate... or "hostage-takers". Anyway re-reading this article after a long time I've reacted badly - look at the picture of Abu Jumma (and his captors!). Padres Hana (talk) 21:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

That would really depend on what the sources use. At the time, the media was much less reluctant to use "terrorist" to describe such people. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Documentary: The Gatekeepers

The Guardian - Harriet Sherwood - Film-maker captures Israeli spy chiefs' doubts over covert killing operations, 14 April 2013:

Another crisis, the hijacking of "Bus 300" in 1984, ended with two Palestinian militants being beaten to death in the custody of the Shin Bet. Shalom, who was in charge at the time, is initially reluctant to discuss it, saying he does not remember the details of the episode which eventually forced his resignation.

Then, chillingly, he says: "They were almost dead. So I said: 'Hit them again and finish it.' I think he took a rock and smashed their heads in." It was, he admits, "a lynching", but adds: "In the war against terror, forget about morality."

    ←   ZScarpia   01:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

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A mass of details remains to be included

A substantial amount of fresh material on the event can be found in the following source: Gidi Weitz, 'New Testimonies on Bus 300 Affair Reveal How Lies Protected Israel's Secret Service,' Haaretz 6 April 2013)