Talk:Butler's Rangers

Uniform

The citation for Uniform variant B is unsatisfactory. It is a link to a webpage. A better citation is desirable. BradMajors (talk) 07:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

"Caution" notice (moved from article)

Caution: Whoever wrote the original submission for this page made a number of errors in historical fact. He repeatedly changes any attempt to correct them. To read an accurate history see *http://www.butlersrangers.ca/ or http://www.iaw.on.ca/~awoolley/brang/brang.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llakais (talk • contribs) 20:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Objections concerning accuracy (removed from article)

In every case where the author of this article has indicated "citation needed" he will search in vain, for the statement is incorrect: Johnson was never a General; the Rangers were formed from men in the British Indian Department; six companies did not exist in December of 1778; the Rangers never burned Wheeling; and the buildings which constituted the original Barracks in Niagara on the Lake were demolished to make way for the construction of Fort George in 1800. The present building dates to 1811 - check with Parks Canada.

I have deposited over a thousand transcripts relating to John Butler and his Rangers with the National Archives of Canada. I am the author of the site on the Rangers given the external link. I think I know what I'm talking about. I wish the author would correct these errors. -- William A. Smy

In addition the author should cite my publication of the Ranger nominal roll:-

Smy, William Arthur. An Annotated Nominal Roll of Butler's Rangers, 1777-1784, with Documentary Sources (St Catharines, 2004).

++++++++++ Note: the above was posted in the article by User:69.157.121.46.--Anonymous44 (talk) 23:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Another comment on the article removed:

"The author of this entry continues to repeat numerous errors. Sir John Johnson was not a General in 1777. He was a Colonel; the men who formed the first company were mainly from the Indian Department; the Rangers were not increased to 10 companies until 1781; the Rangers did not burn Wheeling; and the original Rangers barracks were torn down when Fort George was connstructed in 1800. The current building called Butler's Barracks and used by The Lincoln and Welland Regiment as a regimental museum dates from 1800."

Look, Mr. Smy, or whoever 69.157.* is, if you've got problems with the article, then either comment on it here on the Talk page, or correct the errors. There is no "author" to complain to.
—WWoods (talk) 14:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

In the foregoing,there are two assertions that the Rangers did not burn Wheeling, in what's now West Virginia. The author of these statements is apparently William Smy, obviously an expert in the field. I am no expert, but I do note a now extant site, www.toriesfightingfortheking.com/index.htm in which a "unit description" of the Rangers is written by Roger MacBride Allen and Thomas B. Allen. Thomas Allen is an American historian, and author of "Tories Fighting for the King in America's First Civil War" (Harper, 2010). The Allens state that a major source for their research was the On-Line Institute for Advanced Loyalist Studies. The unit description states "In the final Ranger action of the war, one company raided and torched Wheeling in today's West Virgina." As an interested non-expert, I would be interested in clarification of this, from Mr.Smy or anyone else familiar with the field.Westcanuck (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Adding additional information

I'm in the process of expanding this article using the books written by Cruickshank and Smy as sources. Have updated the bibliography and separated it from the references, added the Battle of Newtown to the list of engagements, and change the size of Butler's Rangers to reflect the information in Smy's book. Will be adding information about the formation and history of the regiment. Will also correct John Butler's rank as he was not promoted to Lieutenant Colonel until 1780. Two questions. First, should "Wyoming Valley Massacre" in the second paragraph be changed to "Battle of Wyoming?" Second, should Saratoga Campaign (1777) and Battle of Oriskany (1777) be removed from the list of engagements since the beating order for Butler's Rangers was issued after these events? Griffin's Sword (talk) 23:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this Griffin's Sword (talk · contribs); there is much which could be added. I am neither a historian nor a Wikipedia expert, but I have a strong interest in a neutral point of view, something that is frequently absent in American history. What must be remembered about Butler’s Rangers is that many of those who served were fighting for their homes in that area, from which they had been driven by Patriots/Rebels.

The relevant Wikipedia article says “The Battle of Wyoming, also known as the Wyoming Massacre”. I think the neutral approach is to call it the Battle of Wyoming. So “Wyoming massacre” should only appear as a footnote or a statement about legacy that “it became known in the United States as the Wyoming massacre (with a reference). I’ve noted the references you added to the talk page about the Battle of Wyoming.

The Cherry Valley massacre ought to be treated the same way, except that the title of the article about that battle has yet to be changed. One runs into “common name“ as a justification, even if the claims are disproven. So it takes perseverance.

Butler’s report, which is referenced, describes the near impossibility of controlling the “Indians”. The body of the letter doesn’t use the word massacre. That only appears in the title and might be the creation of the transcriber, based on common name. I’d like to see the original microfilm.

Holger Hoock’s Scars of Independence has a couple of worthwhile paragraphs about the Rangers, in the context of the subsequent Sullivan “Expedition”/Genocide, page 276. The relevant footnote also has some information and a reference. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 03:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with using Cherry Valley Massacre as the deaths of non-combatants is well documented. The problem with using Wyoming Massacre is the phrase suggests non-combatants were killed which was not the case. Griffin's Sword (talk) 16:28, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

The microfilm of Butler's report can be found at https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_h1446/663. A transcription can also be found in Part 2 of the Butler Papers https://dr.library.brocku.ca/handle/10464/9242. Griffin's Sword (talk) 15:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

According to Smy's Annotated Nominal Roll, Captain Lewis Geneway was commissioned as a company commander but "never did duty with the Corps," so has been removed from the list of company commanders. Griffin's Sword (talk) 19:31, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Novels

I propose deleting this section as its relevance is unclear. At the very least the list should be updated with full bibliographical information. Griffin's Sword (talk) 14:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)