Talk:Byzantine dress

Major problems with the "Historical Review and Influence on Modern Fashion" section

The section over the influence of Byzantine clothing on modern fashion was rife with spelling and capitalization errors as well as an absurd number of redundancies. It also contained a large number of subjective, personal remarks, some of which used the first person pronoun "we." I went through and corrected as many of the errors that I could find and removed the redundant material. I also deleted the personal remarks. It is possible that I may have accidentally missed a few of them, though, so I think somebody so should make sure to go back through and read the section, correcting any possible errors that I may have missed. There is, however, an even bigger problem with sourcing in this section. I noticed that most of the apparent citations are actually just links to various fashion blogs and magazines, which are not reliable sources. I do not think that this section should be deleted altogether since I think that it is important to recognize the influence of ancient styles on modern fashion, but I do think that this section requires some serious revision. At the very least, it definitely needs better sources. Katolophyromai (talk) 23:09, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Veils

I question the section in the artcle which states that the Byzantines invented the veil for women. The Wikipedia article on Veil ascribes it much, much earlier to the Assyrians in the 13th century BC (see here). The Byzantine illustrations I've seen show women with a veil wrapped around their hair (in conformity with the Biblical injunction of Paul KJV), but not with their faces covered. Ancient Roman noble women were also often depicted with their heads (but not their faces) covered. I've read that the Middle Eastern tradition of women covering their faces dates back to the Persians, and from there it was adopted by Muslims. I also question the statements about women's movements being restricted. Byzantine women enjoyed the right to own property, and they had sometimes very strong influence at court (see Theodora, etc.). At a time when rule by women was rejected in the West, the Byzantines had several women who ruled as regents, or even in their own right (see Empress Irene). I think this section is in error (it is certainly unsourced) and should be removed--but I'm not enough of an expert to feel comfortable removing it myself. Does anyone have any helpful input on this subject? MishaPan (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The veil article is useless for this purpose as it makes no attempt to distinguish between head veiling and face-veiling, which is what this article is talking about. Byzantine women only wore veils in the street, and are therefore unlikely to be depicted with a face veil - plus artists don't like doing this. I can't remember the sourcing situation & will look into it - it certainly came from somewhere. I don't really see a contradiction in the general statements about womens' position - Empresses are always likely to be in a different position. Nor is "At a time when rule by women was rejected in the West" entirely accurate. Do you have any sources youyrself? Johnbod (talk) 20:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Refs now added. The Angold should be available online, and is worth reading. Johnbod (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Giving (dis)credit for the veiling of women to a western culture is undoubtedly politically correct but probably inaccurate. Most likely it was Persia. Greek women were indeed somewhat circumscribed in their movements, in theory. Contemporary witnesses suggest that practice was something else again. Women were praised for NOT leaving their homes, suggesting strongly that most did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.218.77 (talk) 20:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead picture

Johnbod :About the Martyrs dress do you mean that he is wearing a sheer layer with a brown border/trim over the blue tunic?Pselv11 (talk) 06:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that the blue and the brown are different garments; at the bottom the folds in the blue don't continue in the brown. I admit on the sleeves the brown looks more like a border to the blue. What do you think? I don't mind just saying "several layers". Johnbod (talk) 15:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The only reason I think he might be wearing 4 layers is because I don't see the white mosaic on the sleeve. But I have seen several byzantine tunics with close fitting sleeves with cuffs of the same trim as the hem. like these : http://www.costumes.org/history/racinet/new/byzantine181.jpg http://www.german-hosiery-museum.de/geschichte/einzelseiten/Bild04_05.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Meister_der_Kahriye-Cami-Kirche_in_Istanbul_005.jpg

Also I haven't seen any byzantine pics with the under tunic peeping out of a close-fitting over tunic.Pselv11 (talk) 21:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't worry too much about the 19th century ones! I suppose if the fringe is embroidered the folds might not carry down through it. Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Any particular reason

we're parking this fairly important subject at a 19th-century namespace where no one will think to look for it? Is there some improvement it offers on Byzantine clothing or Byzantine fashion that isn't immediately apparent? — LlywelynII 14:43, 12 July 2023 (UTC)