Talk:CSELT

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Hallo, CSELT was the main reasearch center serving all the public industrial conglomerate of that time in Italy (and was part of it).

• It developed the first fiber optic line in a city - worldwide
• He started the group aimed to develop a media standard (that later came out with MPEG-1, MPEG-2, Mp3, etc.), coordinated the developmenent across the Consortium and finally independently tested it.
• It developed the first 3D images of the Srhoud at high resolution, and also remving the so-called "blood" from the image.

... and much more. Yes, I think that for Italy this topic is really important. --Marco Ciaramella (talk) 23:40, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

References

Requested move 21 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Discussion evolved into a content discussion. There is a lack of consensus on which title the article should be under. Maybe this will be resolved by itself after the content has been sorted out. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 17:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

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CSELT → Telecom Italia Lab – new company name since 2001

References

Epicamused (talk) 14:41, 21 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 10:59, 2 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 03:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused TILab is not only a new company name and logo, but different different ownership (public vs. private), different mission, different management, different corporate dimension than CSELT. Many relevant departments of CSELT were spuned off before 2001. CSELT was the main research center at national level with a preminent role. Now TILab is just a part/department of a bigger (private) group: to give an example, it has not an independent website anymore (when CSELT did)! In other terms, the previous company was large, independent, public and state-owned for 40 years, with many customers worldwide, when the present restructured entity is a mono-customer part of a private company totally owned and fully dependent from it. Then, I see two viable options: a) Redirecting TILab to CSELT, b) splitting the two companies (TILab can be also a paragraph of TIM Group page), with a reference to CSELT with a {{see also}} redirect. I see a similar case e.g. for HP company, where HP and HP Enterprise are kept as separate pages. Best, Marco Ciaramella (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Part of CSELT (after some relevant department spun off, as the speech tecnologies -Loquendo SpA- and the optoelectronics -OTC- ones), was merged into Telecom Italia Lab SpA (aka TILab) in 2001 for some years, a private company 100% dependent from the private corporation Telecom Italia. However, TILab seems not be existing anymore as a separate entity (the Chamber of Commers record reads as "ceased", see https://www.ufficiocamerale.it/4939/telecom-italia-lab-spa-siglabile-tilab-spa -also the website is unaccessable and refers to TIM group). When CSELT was an independent public research center which was active for 40 years, with different scope, management, number of dependents (about 1200 employees). --Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

you have not cited any official sources or references to prove what you say. Furthermore, the fact of being public or private has nothing to do with it, even the SIP was public before and was then privatised. Epicamused (talk) 09:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused, ok: then, I will include these sources asap (some of them are already cited in the page, but I will list them more explicitly to make the conversation as clearest as possible). It can take some time, I will do my best to make it clear in 2-3 working days. Thank you, best Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

@Epicamused In summary, I think that your example of SIP is perfect and fits with the case of CSELT. In fact, the page of SIP has a link to Telecom Italia mentioned as a "successor". Similarly, TILab is successor of CSELT. Marco Ciaramella (talk) 19:34, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Each case must be taken individually, it cannot be generalized, I took the example of SIP for the issue of public/private company. Epicamused (talk) 22:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Telecom Italia is a different entity than SIP. Telecom also incorporated STET and Olivetti. Epicamused (talk) 22:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Correct. However, for the same reason CSELT is not the same entity of TILab, at least because:

1. CSELT spun off 2 relevant departments just 1-2 years before becoming TILab (Loquendo, on voice technologies, and OTC, on optoelectronics - the first joint project together with USA-based coproration Corning was exactly with this department, see Cesare Mossotto (2011). "Centro studi e laboratori telecomunicazioni (CSELT)". In Cantoni, Virginio; Falciasecca, Gabriele; Pelosi, Giuseppe (eds.). Storia delle telecomunicazioni, Vol. 1 (in Italian). Firenze University Press. p. 347-403. ISBN 978-88-6453-243-1.);

2. TILab included at his beginning 2 new Departments from Telecom Italia: Venture Capital and Business Units, since it was created exaclty to a corporate R&D unit close to the market for its owner and not a purely state owned applied R&D center as in the past (see Preißl, Brigitte; Solimene, Laura (2003). The dynamics of clusters and innovation: beyond systems and networks. Heidelberg New York: Physica-Verlag. p. 219. ISBN 978-3-7908-0077-7.).

3. There are different brands, logos, acronyms of the two entities and it has to be mantained the web traceability. And departments/working areas were completely different, as mentioned at points 1-2. Moreover, CSELT was bigger, with 5 working places (via Borgaro, etc.) and TILab with just 1 (also see reference at point #1).

Best Marco Ciaramella (talk) 07:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

You should cite a few more references. The sources I have found, as well as others, indicate that TILab and CSELT are the same company. Epicamused (talk) 08:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• For the first source (Italian), see p. 355 and 366:

https://books.google.it/books?id=YpQdfylmkWgC&pg=PA362&dq=CSELT&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjF8Pzn0uD_AhUD7LsIHZtBAyQQ6AF6BAgEEAI#v=onepage&q=OTC&f=false

• For the second source (English), see p. 219 in Appendix:

https://books.google.it/books?id=OGDvCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA219&dq=CSELT+AND+venture&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjL0Mn00-D_AhU7g_0HHWAUA_wQ6AF6BAgHEAI#v=onepage&q=CSELT%20AND%20venture&f=false

Best Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The first book you mentioned is actually about transforming CSELT into TI Lab, not creating a new company. In any case we are at 4 sources (mine) against 1 (yours) Epicamused (talk) 10:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's a matter of quantity.

However, I include also this one, which is clear enough: "Telecom Italia Lab (TiLab) is the company of the Telecom Italia Group devoted to promote innovation in the ICT field through the development of new technologies and the definition of new business opportunities by means of venture capital operations. It was created in 2001 by merging the pre-existing Telecom Italia research centre (the large and consolidated Cselt – Centro Studi E Laboratori Telecomunicazioni) and the young Telecom Italia ‘Venture Capital & Innovation’ business unit, plus three other smaller research laboratories belonging to the same group – i.e. the Future Centre in Venice (Italy), the Consumer Lab in Rome (Italy), and the Technology Observatory in San Francisco (CA)." (from [1] New strategic goals and organizational solutions in large R&D labs: lessons from Centro Ricerche Fiat and Telecom Italia Lab, by Fabrizio Cesaroni, Alberto Di Minin, Andrea Piccaluga, doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-9310.2004.00321.x) Marco Ciaramella (talk) 12:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

A similar text can also be found here: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/7080999.pdf (Di Minin, Alberto, Fabrizio Cesaroni, and Andrea Piccaluga. Industrial R&D in Italy: What are new dynamics of exploitation and exploration?. No. 200404. 2004.) Marco Ciaramella (talk) 13:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

To tell the truth, the number of references counts, since the various sites report different information, but it is obvious that one must stick to the information shared by several sites. Epicamused (talk) 14:34, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I see your point. Some generalist sources have the tendency to oversimplify things, but the final result is that they can generate a lot of confusion. Then, some more in-depth sources can solve those issues, as in some specific academical papers (e.g. when speaking right about corporations and not only carrying some extra info in support of technical stuff). I have just found another source here, from 2003, published on a website of CNR (the National research center): http://giove.isti.cnr.it/projects/eud-net/tilab.htm Marco Ciaramella (talk) 17:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Ok from what I see also from the fakes you mentioned, CSELT simply incorporated Venture Capital, assuming the current name TI Lab, but it is still the same entity, even the VAT number (IT00527770010) is the same in fact. Epicamused (talk) 08:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, not only: it dismissed different relevant departments (voice tech and optoelectronics) during the 2001 restructuring. Then, the "same" company is only a subset, with substantially different departments (in addiction of name and logo). In fact, the dismission of voice/language and optical technologies were due because ethey were not the core business of the new owner, which was more interested in fostering the venture capital sector (which was completely absent before 2001). Then, not a cosmetic change, but substancial. Marco Ciaramella (talk) 08:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't see anymore such VAT however... https://registroaziende.it/ricerca?q=IT00527770010 Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/eli/id/1998/03/17/S-3477/p2 you can see the VAT number of CSELT. Epicamused (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, nice catch. It should be added and referred for sure imho. Marco Ciaramella (talk) 10:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: split into 2 pages (CSELT and TILab)

Hence, my proposal is to keep separate the two pages: CSELT and TILab. Because of different ownership, mission, departments, areas of expertise, scope (and name, logo). This will preserve the findability over the web: it is important to have the parent organization related to the other one. Similarly with the distinction between HP and HP Enterprise. Or CSELT and Loquendo.

(section added) Or even TIM and SIP (in this case it is stated that SIP "In 1994 it became Telecom Italia S.p.A.", as similarily as in the case of part of CSELT which was renamed) Best --Marco Ciaramella (talk) 06:37, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

The difference between the two is summarized as following (see: Di Minin, Alberto, Fabrizio Cesaroni, and Andrea Piccaluga. "Industrial R&D in Italy: What are new dynamics of exploitation and exploration?. No. 200404." 2004, https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/7080999.pdf): "TILab was founded in 2001 by merging the pre-existing Telecom Italia research center (the large and consolidated Cselt – Centro Studi E Laboratori Telecomunicazioni) and the young Telecom Italia “Venture Capital & Innovation” business unit, plus three other smaller research laboratories belonging to the same group – i.e. the Future Center in Venice (Italy), the Consumer Lab in Rome (Italy), and the Technology Observatory in San Francisco (CA). This independence was short-lived." (p.9) and "Besides the activities of traditional competence retention, in 2001 TILab started to support internal spin-off processes and incubator structures, in order to promote a sort of “controlled spillover” of its personnel. The management gave researchers the possibility to develop their projects in a quasi-market environment, with the necessary autonomy, but not with all the risks connected with normal entrepreneurial activity. One of the most interesting examples of activities that emerged from these choices was Loquendo." (p. 11) --Marco Ciaramella (talk) 11:42, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Also the sites are (slightly) different between CSELT and TILab. Here from the "Turin Museum" website (https://www.museotorino.it/view/s/477a1b4f94ac49eaa39aa5d821dde011) is clearly stated that

"In 1997 the CSELT joined Telecom Italia S.p.a. and in 2001 it became a headquarters of TILab." (in part. see the point #1, from the original Italian which reads: "Nel 1997 lo CSELT entra in Telecom Italia S.p.a. e nel 2001 diventa una sede di TILab."). In addiction, it can be added that some of the sites of CSELT (in total 5, all in Turin) are not the same sites of TILab (in total 4: one in Turin, one in Venice, another one in Rome and another one in California, US - see the citation from Di Minin et al. above). However the two share the same headquarter site, located in Turin at via Reiss Romoli. Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

More detailed reference of TILab composition is from TIM website here, a 2001 document at p. 69, where is said: "The TILAB Business Unit, created from the integration of the technological experience of CSELT and the Venture Capital Management experience of Telecom Italia, identifies and manages innovative initiatives, creating business opportunities both for companies within the Group and for the external market.". There is also added that in 2001 the TILab BU was composed from the 3 companies TILAB S.p.A., Loquendo S.p.A. and Telsy S.p.A. . Best, Marco Ciaramella (talk) 08:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Another reference is [here] (Source: Telecom Italia, 2001): "The Business Unit, conceived from the integration of the technological expertise of CSELT with that of venture capital management, is responsible for pinpointing and managing innovative initiatives, both by identifying and creating business opportunities which create value for the Telecom Italia Group and increase its competitiveness, and by steering technological integration towards activities with higher added value, with the aim of increasing the revenues of the B.U. beyond the captive market. In this context, the constitution of TILAB and the associated contribution of the “Venture Capital & Innovation” business segment of Telecom Italia (in March 2001), are a response to the need to direct its wealth of competence in the field of research and development by speeding up the creation of new services and, at the same time, establishing the concept of “innovation company” within the Telecom Italia Group." (then are relevant the pp. 51-53). Best, Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

One more reference here (sec.gov), stating: "The TILAB Business Unit (which generated 134 million euros of revenues in 2001, an 8.9% increase compared to the previous year) was formed through the integration of CSELT’s technology with Telecom Italia’s venture capital management skills. It is responsible for identifying and managing innovative ventures by creating new business opportunities for both Group companies and the outside market." and "The main transactions involving TILAB were: • sale to Olivetti Multiservices (OMS) of the business dedicated to general services and property management; • establishment, with the US Group Ramius Capital, of the USA Saturn Venture Partners Fund for investments in the ICT technology; • acquisition from SAIAT of 100% of Telsy, a manufacturing company operating in the field of products and services for IT security systems for TLC; • execution of the equity investment portfolio reorganisation, carried out by concentrating the Venture Capital equity investments in the aforementioned foreign corporate vehicles, while maintaining direct management of the industrial equity investments." Then, the VC was active since the beginning with an international scope. Best, --Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:42, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Additional reference from a 2015- Telecom Italia presentation on etsi.org. Best, Marco Ciaramella (talk) 09:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)