Talk:C minor

This is the talk/discussion page for the "C minor" article.

Natural minor

Hmm... it says in subtext on the edit page that whoever wrote the intro wants it to be b-flat, so that it listed the harmonic minor instead of natural minor. Seeing as this doesn't agree with the picture on the left, and the fact that c minor generally means c Italic textnaturalItalic textminor, I'll go ahead and change it. And would the person who wrote this article (and the f minor article, on that page) please clarify this?71.102.172.40 04:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

You're both right. I changed it from b to b-flat. Oh, and I fixed the f minor page too.71.102.172.40 04:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The infobox also contains B instead of Bflat. I will fix this. Jrobinjapan (talk) 02:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Harmonic minor

I don't have a login account and have never edited wiki but I just wanted to mention something.

The sentence at the top of the article reads "C minor (abbreviated Cm) is a minor scale based on C, consisting of the pitches C, D, E-flat, F, G, A-flat, B and C (harmonic minor scale). Its key signature consists of three flats".

Shouldn't it read "C minor (abbreviated Cm) is a minor scale based on C, consisting of the pitches C, D, E-flat, F, G, A-flat, B-flat and C (harmonic minor scale). Its key signature consists of three flats"?

Note, B-flat is listed as B in the existing sentence giving us only two flats, not the three in the signature.

Since I'm a newbie at this (at editing wiki and at music theory) I'll leave it to the experts to make the change if needed.

The F minor page has this same type of issue so if I'm right whoever edits this might want to look there as well.

Natural/Harmonic minor error?

The intro list the notes of the harmonic minor scale, while the sidebar lists the natural minor scale. Surely this isn't right? C Minor implies the natural minor scale, the harmonic minor should have it's own page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.70.246.116 (talk) 03:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Be careful when editing!

"B-flat which becomes a B natural in the song because of the raised 7th :)"

There's a grammatical error here -- the clause beginning with "which" should be separated out by commas, parentheses, or dashes. And also, who put a smiley face in an encyclopedia text? No wonder you're not supposed to cite encyclopedia articles...

Also, hypothetically, shouldn't all the articles for the keys have the same form? Some have a graphic of the scale, some just have the key signature, &c. Personally I think they should be standardized. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Realms of Gold (talk • contribs) 06:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

The B flat vs. B natural debate

I know it's been changed in the article already, but since it's still in the comments, I thought I'd just add: It's incorrect to say that B natural belongs in the C minor scale. The whole point is that it doesn't -- that minor scales don't have leading tones. Composers are always putting them in because that's how diatonicism works, but check out any composition with a minor tonal area and you'll find the lowered 7th scale degree everywhere. It's part of what makes composing in the minor key so interesting :) At least until Wagner came along, anyway.The Realms of Gold 06:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Image links

31-May-2007: In 2006/2007, Wikipedia images required both attributes "thumb|250px" to show a caption, as in:

[[Image:MyPhoto.jpg|thumb|250px|right| My picture.]]

By itself, size "250px" ignores the caption "My picture" (confusing many people), which is considered bad form in computer languages (should warn & be corrected rather than ignore). Just remember to include "thumb" (or "frame") for a caption in an image-link.

Image hints in 2007:

• Limit most images to "thumb|300px" to avoid crowded text-wrapping.
• A small image followed directly by a big image often chops text.
• To resize larger than the original ("oversizing"), omit "thumb" (oversized images cannot have captions in 2007, yet).
• Beware "left|thumb" (for "right|"), because left-side images appear immediately to left of the text.
• Most images (99.99%) should be quick JPEG for rapid display.
• Avoid resizing PNG images (2007): might become 10x larger resized.

Overall, omitting "thumb" is the most common problem.

There are many formatting issues in the Wiki software (used worldwide), with a long list of problems to fix, but in the software world, errors often persist, only to be upstaged by a totally radical new software version, rather than just fixing the irritating problems fast. Note that numerous software systems (not just Wiki) have frustrating issues for years. -Wikid77 03:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Other issues

[ Discuss other unnamed issues here. -Wikid77 ]

Put back the songs you erased!

Questionable songs

I'm pretty sure Tragedy's refrain is in B minor, not C minor. The verses sound more like D major with some modulation leading into B minor right before the refrain, but at no point is any version I've ever heard in C minor. Also, the link points to the wrong page (it goes to the page about tragedy as a form of drama, not the song), so if it is left in, the link needs to be changed. PiGuy314 (talk) 04:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced?

I find the placement of the "unsourced" tag on the list of classical pieces to be strange. Isn't verifying what key a piece is in easy to do if you look at the score? It seems to me that the printed score for a given piece of classical music is the source that Wikipedia citation standards require us to cite -- am I right? And if I'm right, then the source is already cited here.

I don't know how easy it is to find sheet music for pop songs, so that list may be different. SparsityProblem (talk) 22:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

No. The score still requires interpretation to determine a key. You see a key signature with three flats; is that C minor, Eb major, F dorian? Does it stay in the same key the whole time? It either needs a reference to a published article stating the key, or else it's WP:OR. Torc2 (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources for Songs

Add these songs if you can find sources for them: Backstabbers--The O'Jays A Fifth of Beethoven--Walter Murphy and the Big Apple Band A Girl Like You--Edwyn Collins Larger Than Life--The Backstreet Boys That Lady--The Isley Brothers. Also, where did anybody find a source that said Tragedy from the Bee Gees was in c minor? It's actually in b minor. 24.158.8.234 (talk) 03:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Limited Theory Image

The svg file of the "Circle of Fifths" is incomplete. In the European musical tonal system the keys are 15: C with no alterations, 7 with flats (b) and 7 with sharps (). the image only gives 13 - this MUST be corrected because it's incomplete. --151.16.140.29 (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

"Lesser used key"?

I find this claim dubious, as well as awkwardly phrased: "C minor is one of the lesser used key signatures in all music today and in the past." Source for this? I have added a citation tag for now but am thinking of deleting it. mcoverdale (talk) 16:50, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted it. Its widespread use in symphonic and solo piano literature refutes this claim in the absence of a source. mcoverdale (talk) 16:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Both J.S. Bach and Mozart, for different reasons, had a particular liking for the three-flat signature and composed quite a lot of music in both E♭ major and C minor. And it would surprise me if they were the only ones. But the offending sentence was removed eight years ago anyway, so now it's a moot question. — Tonymec (talk) 02:14, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Tuning frequency

In C Major the C4 note corresponds to the 440 Hz tuning frequency. Which note in C Minor does? Also other technical details on e.g. how this maps to MIDI note numbers would be useful but is currently missing from the article. Tronic2 (talk) 00:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought 440 Hz was an A (the tuning fork's A, in fact) regardless of which scale you were in? And anyway, you aren't going to re-tune your piano or your organ when modulating from one scale to another, so whatever frequency is an A, or a C, in one particular scale is the same note in every other scale. Tuning differences happen when trying to go back to how music sounded in a certain period, because historically, the tuning fork has been tuned higher and higher over time. IIUC the Baroque composers tuned their A to 435 Hz, at some point it was 440, and now it's sometimes even higher; so some orchestras who play mostly Baroque music tune their A to 435 Hz while orchestras playing music from several different centuries do otherwise. — Tonymec (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

The Magis Flute

@Michael Bednarek: : The Magic Flute begins with three flats, ends with three flats (for all sung parts and most instruments, the few exceptions being some instruments which cannot produce all 12 halftones), and its final sound is a tutti chord on the notes C – E♭ – G i.e. a perfect chord of C minor. (It is common for long musical pieces to transpose out of their tonality and finally come back to it.) For me it is in C minor. — Tonymec (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, there are are several thousand bars between the overture and the finale – and yes, I know that all of WAM's mature operas open and end in the same key. So calling the opera "in the key of x" is an oversimplification. Secondly, 3 flats here is E-flat major: E♭–G–B♭ – there is no C in the opening or closing chords of the overture (or the finale), although the introduction of Tamino's 1st number is indeed in C minor. If you have a source saying otherwise, I, and a publisher of the overture and others, are looking forward to reading it.-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Closing chord of the finale: Flauto I, E♭; Flauto II, G; Oboe, E♭-G; Clarinet in Si♭, noted one tone too high: E♭-G; Fagotto, E♭-G; Cor in Mi♭, noted a minor third too low: E♭-G; Clarion in Mi♭, noted a minor third too low: E♭-G; Timpani in Mi♭-Si♭, in F key with empty signature, I guess noted a minor third too low, E♭; Violino I, E♭-G; Violino II, E♭-G; Viola (in C key) E♭-G; Violoncello e Bassa (in F key) E♭. Neither a B♭ nor a C in them. E♭ and G are part of both E♭ major and C minor perfect chords, but for C minor you'd expect the tonic to be present, and for a "happy ending" a major key would be more "usual". Sorry I jumped to conclusions. — Tonymec (talk) 14:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

"B-sharp minor" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect B-sharp minor. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 31#B-sharp minor until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 12:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)