Talk:Caerfyrddin (UK Parliament constituency)

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New article?

The new Caerfyrddin constuency has similar boundaries to the Carmarthen constituency which existed between 1918 and 1997. However the previous borough constituency (1536-1918) was an entirely separate entity which should form an article of its own. If no one objects I shall action this in the next few days. Cheers Macs15 (talk)

We tend not to split constituency articles by date, though. doktorb _words^deeds 12:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Macs15 on this one. The current article is now a disambiguation page for four different constituences, two of which shared the same name, three of which shared a vaguely similar area. The 1542–1832 division comprised only the town of Carmarthen, so was very different (it also wasn't a constituency to a UK Parliament, which didn't exist until the 20th century). The latest boundary review has thrown up some odd configurations for constituences, which is leading to a small number of article splits already - admittedly I've created two of them, though these were for differences far less than the difference between Caerfyrddin (UK Parliament constituency) and Carmarthen (1542–1832 Parliament constituency). I note we already have Carmarthenshire (UK Parliament constituency), which has more in common with Caerfyrddin (UK Parliament constituency) than the pre-1832 constituency, but has a separate article. Sionk (talk) 08:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

If Sionk's recent splits of others is new approach to starting to split constituencies by dates, then would be open to a separate Carmarthen (1542–1832 UK Parliament constituency) (was "UK" missed off? and per this article, seems the last parliament is used even if this constituency was used in multiple parliaments). Or at least Carmarthen Boroughs (UK Parliament constituency), or even Carmarthen (UK Parliament constituency) if sources (bar the council) overwhemingly use "Caerfyrddin" during and after the upcoming election. Although note there is some sort of relevant discussion at WP:UKPC. DankJae 16:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

There's a tiny number of "(historic UK Parliament constituency)" articles and, lately, a couple more that use the actual dates. I suppose 1832 is more 'historic' than the mid-20th century, so Carmarthen (historic UK Parliament constituency) could be a feasible option. It would just be somewhat more vague than Carmarthen (1542–1832 UK Parliament constituency) ...I think personally I'd prefer the latter if I had to choose. After all, there's a "Carmarthen (1918–1997 UK Parliament constituency)" which some might consider 'historic' too. Sionk (talk) 20:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I know there's some historic ones as raised at Talk:Cardiff East (UK Parliament constituency), just saying that there is a similar discussion at WP:UKPC, so may need to look where the existing consensus is based on as splitting these articles aren't common (yet), so just looking out if there is consensus for/against them overall. Carmarthen (1542–1832 UK Parliament constituency) looks cleaner, although using "historic" is still an option. DankJae 11:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Cardiganshire/Ceredigion is a useful comparison, it followed a similar political path to Carmarthenshire. There is already an article called Cardigan (UK Parliament constituency), which includes "Cardigan" and "Cardigan Boroughs" between the 1542 and 1885. On that basis, at least for now, it would make sense to create a Carmarthen (1542–1918 UK Parliament constituency), which could also cover "Carmarthen Boroughs" (which unlike Cardigan continued until 1918). It seems Cardigan Boroughs was commonly known as "Cardigan", much as Carmarthen Boroughs was referred to as "Carmarthen".

The historic division of Carmarthenshire (UK Parliament constituency) has far more in common with the post-1918 Carmarthen/Caerfyrddin, because these constituencies cover all (or the majority) of the county. Carmarthenshire was divided in 1885 between East and West, before being reunited to become the county-wide (excluding Llanelli) "Carmarthen" in 1918. Sionk (talk) 12:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Fine with historic Carmarthen and Carmarthen Boroughs being one, like Beaumaris (UK Parliament constituency). DankJae 13:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

It seems there is a consensus on the Carmarthen / Carmarthen Boroughs proposal - I've been meaning to action this for long time but wanted to avoid wading into a controversy ....

Macs15 (talk) Macs15 (talk) 20:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I had a version in my sandbox, so I've completed the split. Thanks for spotting the potential. With the latest recreation of the Caerfyrddin constituency, and the page rename, the history was becoming quite opaque. Sionk (talk) 21:45, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for doing this! Macs15 (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

New constituency name note

It seems there's a little confusion in the wider world around the English name of the re-formed 2024 constituency. While the Boundary Commission named the constituency Caerfyrddin (https://bcomm-wales.gov.uk/reviews/06-23/2023-parliamentary-review-final-recommendations) and BBC News uses this name, other sources including Carmarthenshire County Council who are administering the election (https://www.carmarthenshire.gov.wales/home/council-democracy/elections-voting/uk-parliamentary-general-election/) and Electoral Calculus (https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/calcwork23.py?seat=Carmarthen) are using Carmarthen as the English name.

I'm not suggesting any changes - it seems reasonable to me for the article to be Caerfyrddin - I just wanted to flag that there is going to be inconsistency around this in sources. Woodgreener (talk) 16:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@Woodgreener, introduced it back to the first sentence. Tbh amused Carmarthenshire retained the English name (it being a largely Welsh-speaking county), but if they use it then it should be classed as an alt name in modern contexts as the commission did too. Whether the page move should revert back to Carmarthen, it should only occur if overwhelming sources do use Carmarthen not Caerfyrddin. Plus I would note most readers would follow the BBC rather than internal council documents. DankJae 21:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The Commission recommends the official name of Caerfyrddin for this constituency and the official alternative of Carmarthen.

- Boundary Commission for Wales. Per this and above use by the council, I think justifies is as a current MOS:BOLDALTNAMES.​​

What isn't in doubt (unless sources overwhemingly reject the change) that the title should be Caerfyrddin. DankJae 21:45, 21 June 2024 (UTC)